Building for Bees with Mycelium | Zain Ansari, Founder @ Phyta Biodesign

Oh, today on the show we have Zayn and Sari. Zayn is the founder of a company called Phto Biio Design, an architecture firm based in London that is using innovative methods and innovative materials to design the built environment in a way that's more accommodating to uh better human life but also uh to non-human life that

exists uh in the local area. Uh, for example, something that they've built their initial success around is a mcelium based uh material that's formed in certain ways to help promote the life of bees in uh in certain uh office environments. Uh it's they retrofit uh some buildings and they get involved in some new construction. So um Zayn goes

into it in the episode and actually shows us some of his material uh which is cool. uh learned a lot about uh something specific to their company is not only hey you know what we do is good for the bees which is what they were doing at the beginning of the company but a lot of their recent successes come

from repackaging uh their value in a way that makes it uh human centric because a lot of the people that are eventually going to buy from them are not be centric unfortunately they're humanentric and so being able to uh communicate the value of the business in that way uh is a good lesson among ong

other lessons from the episode. Thank you as always to our partners, Clean Techch Growth Lab. If you're looking to grow in clean tech, they are the people to do it with and as always the producers of this podcast, Craz Friends.

And with that, I give you Zay. Oh, welcome to another episode of The Grove. Shout out to our sponsors mentioned just before this, but without them, it would not be possible to interview awesome people doing awesome things like Zane. Welcome. Hello.

What's going on? So, before we get into all of the incredible things that you're physically building, aside from the company, uh, if you give a brief, uh, introduction of yourself and what you're building. >> Oh, so, uh, I'm Zay Ansari. I'm an architect. I'm based here in London and I've been practicing architecture for

around, I guess, more than 10 years now. And um I ended up starting this company called Fighter Bio Design around 3 years ago um here in London. And the the mission or the goal of the company is to link nature with architecture to create solutions for climate change. And our work primarily is focused on how can we

build architecture for nonhumans uh like um bees and birds and how do we integrate them within the existing urban infrastructure and based on that mission we ended up creating different kinds of systems that could be retrofitted in old buildings or be installed on new ones.

>> Yeah. So how long would you say it could be official incorporated? it could not be you know whatever your definition of it but when did it start when did the company start uh so in officially we started in the summer of 2022 where um we I had just completed my masters at the UCL Bartlett

school of architecture and uh where I was just like you know for two years I spent there focusing on these kind of you know this new field of bio design and I had just graduated and I was in my like enjoying my summers and figuring out like you know how do I take what

I've just done and you know put it to use and it was just cooking in my head that you know what do I do with this and then um uh there was this policy that had just come up uh and it was like a huge thing in in the UK which was called

the biodiversity net gain policy and it was for the first time people were linking architecture and nature together and that kind of like you know created this initial burst of uh energy and I ended up started looking into creating a more formal you know converting that research into a more formal incorporated company. M well so

okay so summer of 2022 yeah >> right right so I so so I'll go back even further before I asked that question that I was about to ask which is you mentioned studying architecture for about 10 years is that right >> not studying uh practicing so >> practicing so studying for even longer

than that >> yes >> okay so then so then what was it in the first place >> why why architecture >> why architecture Sure. Um I think I always wanted to be an architect since I was a child. I think I got the jeans from my grandfather because he was an architect.

>> Uh I used to we used to spend uh summers at their place and I still remember him you know sketching and drawing in front of me and I was just a child and I was always fascinated by his work and I think that kind of germinated that thought in my head and um I ended up

becoming an architect. Yeah. So, so through the whole because from my understanding it's pretty intensive to get to the point of being able to practice and then then the career uh trajectory itself is pretty intensive as well. So, was there any point in the journey where you said hm >> I don't know or maybe you know this

isn't what I thought it was. What's going on? >> Every single day. >> Yeah. It's just like, you know, when you want to be an architect, you just have to learn to get used to the pain and torture that comes with it. It's just it's not a simple field. um on many levels because you know there are many

times like most of the time you're trying to solve problems that are absolutely new because why would you like you know every problem it comes up with its own challenges and it's it's like a new scenario every time you're in a project. Um and I think that's one of the reason why I also like being in it

and then apart from that it's just the hours are just so long. It's just like you're constantly working. So, you just have to be like really really passionate about it >> to be in it. >> So, a favorite actually this is this is great because this is a question that comes from uh my personal life that I've

been able to ask a bunch of architects that I've met but for for the design of the show I have not had many architects on the show. So to me, someone that is not an architect, uh, architecture is building buildings. It's building skyscrapers, it's building homes, it's these things.

But from an architect perspective, you know, what is architecture? Because I imagine from your perspective, it's not just the building. It's like everything else. And even with with your company, we're trying to take that even further. But from your definition of it, how would you say what would you say architecture is?

>> Uh for me and I think this reminds me of my uh the interview question that I that I was asked when I was u getting into my undergrad. Um I and I answered that question by saying that it's not the building that you're designing, it's the life that you're designing that would

take place in the building around it. And that's what makes this profession so interesting because yeah you end up creating these structures and putting materials together to you know assemble you know it's an assemblage of all of this systems and materials but what makes it really interesting is that how is all of that affecting and influencing

the life in and around it. Um I think for me that is the most uh fascinating aspect of architecture. >> Well I guess London's an interesting place because it's so this is actually something that I was thinking about when I was walking around is that so I'm based here in Philadelphia and there's a lot of

interest in adaptive reuse and there's a lot of difficulty with adaptive reuse. Mhm. >> Um, you know, I mean, because from American standards, there are old buildings here, but when you go to to somewhere like London, like an old building here is considered like, oh, that was just put up yesterday, you know. So, some, you know, so, um, I

don't know how much, this is more of a curiosity question. I don't know how much uh your work uh intersects with adaptive reuse but I do know that at least in the in the space of trying to you know increase energy efficiency or increase uh water use efficiency or even the delivery of electricity and water

and those things uh looking at large scale commercial buildings or even residential buildings and retrofitting old ones is a method that makes things better. So London to me seems like an interesting place to practice architecture for that reason. How much adaptive reuse have you done? And if not, you know, just say what your

thoughts are about it and then I'll ask you the next question. >> Uh you're you're absolutely correct. I think London is such an incredible city to practice architecture uh because you literally find things here that are, you know, buildings and structures here that are like thousands of years old. and then to contemporary architecture. You

could just I'm sure when you walk around London, you can, you know, you can go to the old part where the you still have those medieval architectural remains of the old part of the city and then you can find art deco buildings, you can find brutal buildings and then you can find contemporary architecture

like Zahadi and you know Heatherwick and all of these incredible architects. Um, so I think u my I I've been working here for in in London for the last three years and the respect to the surroundings and the context is just incredible. Um, and and the respect to the work of all these people that are

put out here is incredible. So whenever you're, you know, putting anything out there, um, you really have to respect it. and they're grade two listed buildings, grade one listed buildings and that really there's an entire infrastructure to how to protect uh what's out there. um what we're doing with with FITA with u the systems that

we're developing uh they could be retrofitted um in old buildings and um I remember um the and we've done installations in like almost all sorts of scenarios where um so just right around the corner there's this inner temple garden which is like again a very old part of London and we did like a small installation there And

it was really interesting to see how it blended in with the architecture. >> Um because what we've done is like super contemporary and it's like super datadriven design and 3D printing and myelium and all of that. And then to see it being blended within the old uh architecture was quite interesting. Um yeah and we've done installations that

are in quite new parts of London as well. So, it's all about how do you blend where you are and how do you respect the context? >> Yes. See, that and that's what I think is interesting about your perspective versus like my head, I would say, yeah, of course, like make it look good and I

really I really appreciate when things look good. But from, you know, like a like climate perspect, you know, energy use or water use or things like this, I'm I'm really just concerned about the the strict efficiency of a building. And it's like, hey, does this do what it needs to do uh in in a good way? And a

lot of old buildings don't. And so it's very complicated. I think when you walk into a place and you're just like, make it better, but they're like, wait, >> like there is a design aspect here that needs to be considered. So um so so that's why I appreciate your opinion.

There needs to be people like that think of you. So after your graduate studies, this is what I was going to ask you like seven minutes ago. After graduate studies, there's a lot of ways that you could practice architecture and you chose entrepreneurship.

Why? Yes. Well, I don't know how this answer would be taken, but for me, I always say this to everyone. Um, entrepreneurship is the best form of activism. Um I thought >> yeah I always say this because um we it's it's something that I want like I if me as an architect the culmination of

this entire the entire academic and practical experience came to a point where I said that um buildings need to be more friendly like more integrated with nature and if I keep on talking about it um you know it's it's it's going to end up being in papers where I thought that you know through this

venture what I could do is actually create solution that are economically viable and people could actually use it um and I think one of the most relevant examples are the data centers that we're you know that everyone's talking about this massive piece of architecture that people are putting it out there and then

you know there's a major backlash for it But I feel that um I'm sure they're looking for solutions and I'm sure that is the need of the hour but um if we keep on fighting it how do we like there I think that becomes a bit you know of a hurdle in progress. I felt that

when when we have the power of technology and uh the kind of work that we're doing, why can't we use it commercially to not just solve the problem but also uh benefit >> uh nature and everything. So yeah, that's my I think of way of saying that's my activism.

So what was the idea for the company when it started and how has that changed in the last four years? >> We're still pretty much quite uh doing what we were doing before. So there there weren't uh >> um any pivots in that. But what I would say is we've learned a lot. I I think um

you know transitioning from this academic background to um a very real life scenario it just um it really taught us a lot. For example um we're working one of our systems uh there it's designed for solitary bees and when I started the company I had very limited information about it. In fact, I had a

phobia of bees and then since the last three years being so closely involved with this spe these species and understanding them has you know changed a lot and then we've evolved >> and we've we've adapted yeah our solutions and I am now more like I can be at least in 1 m distance from a bee

and not 10 m. So that's the evolution that I would say >> that's 10x that's 10x reduction. That's crazy. That's insane. I think um that that's that's cool to hear that there haven't been any uh major pivots. So what then would you describe that you have learned and what is the core like what is the

business model you know? >> Yeah. Um I I'll start this that answer by saying that when we started this uh company and we were focused on this idea of interspecies architecture and just focusing on the species a lot of and especially so if you're talking about that in the academic world um it's

fine it's great but when as soon as you do that in an entrepreneurial world where you have um stakeholders involved and you have people involved um everyone's looking for solutions that are humanentric. Um and we we were we kept on saying that no it's for the species and they impact um human life as

a whole with ecosystem services. But the major I think learning which has happened this year was that how these systems could actually benefit building performance like what we were talking before. Um both our systems are you know incredible because we've been tested with testing it with different institutions and they both have some

really interesting data on how we can address the thermal capacity of a building. um how can we um collect storm water on facads and also acoustics um how can we you know make the buildings more soundproof using these systems. So it's not just the greatest learning was that oh our systems are not just for the

animals that we're talking about but it's also for >> our urban environment and building performance. So that was the greatest learning. Yeah, >> that is such I I'm so glad you're talking about that >> because I think that is such an important uh piece of not only what you're talk which is >> it's really awesome that somebody like

you and your company you guys are going about something that's so important which is uh integrating these these different types of architecture and and I don't know if you would go as far as saying this but it sounds like you know wilding the the urban landscape and you're packaging it now like what you

just said packaging it in a way that's more digestible to the people who might not give a about oh ob bees oh like species whatever but they do care about building efficiency and so what you're doing is you're packaging it in a way where they go oh we'll we'll give you money to do that and in reality you're

saying now now now we're helping bees now we're helping other other species and I think that uh that framing that packaging that that storytelling is uh extremely I mean what a great example so what then was your first uh how did you get your first customer?

You know, like some something that we focus on on this show is is uh is growth and a lot of times when you're starting a company, getting the first customer is is hard and difficult and interesting and all these things. And uh I'm curious like who was it a connection from the university, you know, was it uh somebody

else? How did that first engagement go? Yeah, it was just like um we had just created this this this first product which was uh API for solitary bees and um I remember talking to one of my adviserss at the university um in the incubator program and he's like you have to put it out there. You just you can't

just keep it in this space and and you know people are not just going to come to you. You have to put it out there. And I think that one push just changed the way I was approaching it because like I said, you know, transitioning from academic to this entrepreneurial world was a was a was a really

interesting experience. Then what I did was I literally just started emailing everyone on the planet who would be interested in this. It was just like uh reaching out, reaching out, reaching out and and um we got a lot of uh a lot of rejection but at the same time a lot of yeses

>> which really helped us to get our first foot through the door and um and a lot of people who said yes to us were like really important organizations based here in in the UK. And I think that completely um changed our um I'd say um journey. So um I I say that the first

thing that we did was you know communicating what we're trying to do uh to the people who need it the most and who could make a difference for us. Um >> and you could physically just like you know say tell us that okay just put it here and we we're giving you a site just

do it. So obviously a lot of our first initial installations were for free but that really helped us to improve our you know um uh do our R&D uh prove the concept and then uh we also got selected for um some really important shows here in London. uh Chelsea Flower Show being one of the most important ones because

>> I don't know if I don't know if you know about the show but it's like one of the major events in London regarding anything anything to do with nature agriculture uh sorry nature gardening horiculture and um and I was I had no clue about it. I had just been in London for the two years at we did it two years

ago and I had no idea about the scale of the show. It's just like um and we I haven't seen the my product as a full scale wall until that show >> and um that was the first time I put it up there and then you know so BBC covers that show there the there's a royal

visit so the king and the queen were there and I'm just uh just standing there and I'm like what the hell is happening and u and then the amount of people that were there and I think that show also really put us on the map because there were people from all over the world, from the US, from all over

Europe. Um, and they just wanted to buy it off us over there. Uh, which was a great confidence boost for us, but we were, you know, still like we started the initial sales through that show and, uh, then we also continued our R&D and then there were a lot of important people there. So those people reached

out to us those organizations and then commissioned us projects uh from there and I think that became like an initiation of us coming into the commercial world. >> So so so when we're talking about commercialization is it is it a a standard repeatable product? Is it like custom design consulting for putting up

big big buildings? Is it both? >> So we have um yeah we have both. Uh so we do consultancy for uh um architecture with the focus on bio design and how can we integrate bio design principles within architecture. So we do that and we but our main I'd say the the flagship is a pro uh we have two flagship

products and uh so they both are standardized and repeatable but the way we installed them that could be customized um based on the needs of uh the site. So it's quite modular and we could scale up scale down we could make it freestanding or you know attach it to a wall. Uh, so it's quite flexible that

way. >> Cool. So, uh, I'm curious to see when we're talking about installations and all these things, the material. So, do you have anything with you >> at the moment? It seems like you're in the shop. Okay, that is that is looking crazy. It looks like a looks like a fossil. So, what are we looking at?

So this is a panel uh uh this is our API panel and it's made out of miccelium which is a root of a mushroom and each panel is grown. It's not made it's uh we 3D print these molds where they're grown into these shapes and then these holes are where the bees go and live and this

could be made into a modular wall paneling system and it could be installed on garden walls in landscape areas. So this is one thing and um the second one is uh this guy which is uh the fauna module. These are 3D printed terracotta um pieces and then they are integrated within uh within a wall system.

I'll just show you. >> Yeah, get the team. Get the team in here. Come on. So it's it's basically attached to this kind of like a a grid system and then the modules come together creating this entire wall.

>> Yeah. And with this system what we've what's really interesting and unique is that it um it can be customized to any uh site um because it's all 3D printed and digitally fabricated the structure and the modules. So each um installation is unique.

>> So is it so so is it the the material that is uh proprietary? Are you using like a regular off-the-shelf uh mycelium supplier? Is it just the application that's novel? You know, the way that you're applying that you're putting these pieces together that that's novel part.

>> Yeah. for so for the micelium um it's um the the way we are producing these modules um are you know manufacturing uh not the manufacturing the molds that we've designed are unique to us and because it's like a very specialized kind of a mold and we make the mold and give it to the supplier and then they

grow the uh myelium in it whereas the 3D printed uh modular system this thing is like entirely our proprietary system I'd say. Yes, the material is traditional but the way we are um bringing everything uh together it's uh quite unique to us. So we have files.

>> Is this specific to bees or are we are we talking about other things or or right now the flagship product is about integrating? >> Yeah. So so this one is for solitary bees. So these are the bees that don't live in hives. Uh these are the bees that are very important pollinators. Um

and um the reason why they don't build their hives and they don't have that protective ecosystem makes them vulnerable to um environmental pressures and you know human uh related issues. Um and so that's why their habitats are really really important especially in urban environments. Uh whereas um the the this one this is designed for birds

and bats and other kinds of species that are more cavity nesting species. They can go and live in build their nests in here. >> But we could also use them to plant different kinds of uh plantations and also leave them empty because they are really good that is really good for heat insidation and also uh rainwater

collection. >> Wow. So where so we've so we've come to this point you're you're at I saw you you're featured recently as a really cool piece about your guys's company. Where are we going? you know, where what are your dreams? Where do you want to see this stuff installed? Um, and what are the biggest hurdles that you're

facing uh in getting there? Uh the goal is to um have any as many installations as we can have um out there and integrate them within not just the existing built environment but also make it like a standard installation in um in all these new buildings that are coming up because buildings are one of

the major reasons why we have these blockages in migratory patterns and habitats as they're building over natural reserves. So our goal, major goal right now is to scale up both these systems on an architecture scale. Um so that's why we're talking to a lot of local councils and we're talking to a lot of developers. Um and hopefully soon

we will you know we're trying to get projects uh in those areas. Um and building upon you know all the installations that we've done that have been you know not that massive scale. There were small scale installations. Um so that's the goal and uh um yeah that's where we're headed. So we have a proof

of concept where we can see you know the bees using the panels and uh which is incredible um and yeah >> so that's what we're focused on right now. selling selling into um developers or buildings like this can be is I guess sometimes they can be uh you know things can happen quickly but generally

speaking the sales process is is longer and these are slower moving industries. So what what are some hurdles that you've run into as far as growth and how are they also opportunities? Um I think uh hurdles I would say are mainly messaging because a lot of people they um they kind of don't understand

the entirety of the message that we have with these two products um because the moment you like if you're talking about um uh to for example if you're talking to developers who are more like focused on efficiency and they're more focused on cost efficiency. So uh to them we have to always explain that oh these are

not super expensive these are actually cost effective and we're trying to price them in line with existing systems so it's not taken as something luxurious or not something that is like you know not really cost inefficient um I think messaging is key um and also getting access to these people um and talking so we we're That's what we're

trying to do like figuring out how do we reach out to these people and um deploy these in in real time scenarios but also >> so I think the most effective method for us has been like actually demonstrating it. Uh that's why we're doing this year we've been focusing on a lot of shows

like the clerk and well design week >> earlier this year and now we have two really important u shows coming up next month. um uh one in London and one in Italy uh and where we're going to do full scale installations and show people um from the field to come and see and

feel it. I think that has been the most effective way of communicating when people see it and then they feel it uh they just like you know they get super attached to it and >> impacted by it. Yeah.

>> Very cool. Well, with all this work that you've done and all this work uh that you will do, I'm curious what inspires you. >> What inspires me? >> Mhm. Um I think um professionally uh I I' I'd circle back to where I started from by saying that you know um I'm really inspired by the

impact that you can create as an entrepreneur. Um and the and the change that you can bring about. You're not just like, you know, um I'm not just saying things. I'm I'm trying to do things. And I think that's what really inspires me because when I do it and I fail and then I reiterate and that

reiteration process is very inspiring for me because you know you're learning and growing um and yeah and and what we've done so far um uh is just incredible. So the feedback that we get from people and all the places where we've installed the excitement when I see um on people's faces that's that's

also quite inspiring. >> Very cool. Well, if anyone else is inspired to follow along or get in touch, what's the best way to do that? >> Exactly. Sorry. >> So we'll just say again. So, so if anyone else is inspired to follow along or get in touch, what's the best way to do that?

>> Oh, the best way um is you can email us. You can contact us on any media. We are on Instagram. We're on our uh we have a website and um just share your thoughts. I think um just reach out and say what you feel about our products as well when you see

them. Um because a lot of the things that we've developed so far, we get comments on whenever we post something, we get some really interesting comments from people saying that, oh maybe you could do this, maybe you could do that.

So that's also really helpful for us. And if people want to incorporate this within their projects and their houses wherever they can also reach out uh reach us out for that and we can um see what we can do for them.

>> Very cool. Well, Zane, thank you so much for talking about your story, talking about your goals. This is very inspiring uh technology and I'm excited for the next one. >> Yes, me too.