Scaling the Next Generation of Sustainable Technology | John Ellersick & Reina Ashizawa, Next Rung

Oh, today on the show we have John Ellersick and Raina Ashiawa. John is principal consultant, president, founder, poodle dad, I think it says on his profile of next technology and Raina is a a lead business analyst uh with the company. And so this was a special episode. We got to sit down with John to

understand his personal story, how he got to uh starting Nextstrong Technology and where they are now and what the space looks like. What is next technology? You may ask because I haven't told you yet. They do process engineering for feasibility, scale up, and commercialization. And what does that mean? So my understanding is that

let's say there's a technology that captures methane and makes a new material out of it. You've proved it at lab scale, you've proved it at pilot scale, at field deployment scale, and now you need to find a commercial deployment. You need an industry partner. You need, you know, 20,000 units of this material than than you've

ever produced before. and you need to do it out in physical space because this is hard tech. So John had a career of building and scaling technologies that had gone through this process and after his third one he looked around and he said there doesn't seem to be a playbook uh for this process even though there

are repeatable aspects of it and a lot of the people going through it are going through it for the first time it's novel technologies and uh he said now what I want to do create the playbook and deploy the playbook and so that's what next technology does. Uh Rea, we got to sit down with her because she is in the

weeds uh talking with technical founders about the details of what scaling looks like. In a lot of these conversations, uh you have to align what your hard data says with the direction that you're going with what your technology is able to do today with what your technology will be able to do and be able to walk

both of those lines in order to sell a commercial engagement or a funding round. So, right up the alley with the theme of this uh of this podcast. Very awesome episode. Filmed the Greentown Labs. It's very uh exciting to be back.

So, shout out as always to our sponsors, Clean Techch Girls Lab. If you're looking to grow in clean tech, they are the people to do it with. And as always, the producers of this podcast craze and friends. And with that, I give you John and Raina.

Oh, welcome to another episode of The Grove. Shout out to our sponsors mentioned just before this. Without them, it would not be possible to interview awesome people doing awesome things like John. Welcome. >> Thank you very much. >> So, before we get into how you've been such an integral part of not only uh

Clean Tech in general, if that's what you want to call it, but Greentown Labs, where we are today, >> if you could give a brief introduction of yourself and what you're building. Oh, >> sure. Um, a good way to think about my experience and my background is I've had a career split into thirds. For the

first third of my career, I worked for large engineering companies. I was cleaning up uh environmental projects and chemical plants and refinery plants and building stuff all first of a kind. The middle third of my career I spent on four different sustainable technology startups, commercializing them from really leader scale up to large

commercial scale plants. um built four companies, exited them all. >> And after the fourth one happened, thank you. That's good. Um I thought to myself, you know, there's a pattern here. I would get brought in to build things when a company was sort of later stage and starting to deploy, but it meant that I was only with companies for

three, four, five years if we did well or if it went poorly. So when the last company was acquired in 2017, the next day I showed up in that seat, Greentown Labs and started NextRung Technology 10 years ago now.

>> Nice. Okay. So the first thing I want to understand is how do you describe the space that you're in? >> That's a great question. So we say we're scaling sustainable process technologies. They're capital intensive and they're not repeated units like solar panels. So much more like large fermentation plants or industrial. Other

people call it clean tech, tough tech, climate tech or hard tech. We call it sustainable process technologies. And to say that sustainability means making the things you need with the resources you have. >> Interesting. So if we take it a step further, could you ground one of these examples? Maybe uh an example that

you've worked on at Nextron. >> Yep. or uh uh a plant that you've built uh in the past, but just an example of something that that you've built in this space >> that physically says. One of the cool things we're spending a lot of time doing is uh scale up facilities, physical plants where other companies go

to scale up their own uh physical technologies technologies. >> So we've been working for the last three or four years building the uh US investment in biio manufacturing. It's called Biomates Plant in Minnesota and we started with convening the whole set of stakeholders who might use it, who might fund it around this

purpose and deciding like what should we build. Um we did engineering design of a facility that's about 150,000 square feet. So as big as this building, maybe a little larger and then um as it's in construction now, we're a small group of people, 20 or 25 people. Uh we sit on the owner side and we're reviewing all

the specs, all the drawings. Um it's being constructed right now. The floor is all torn up and we're buying equipment and it will take another uh 12 months. >> Nice. >> Before this uh $200 million project gets deployed. That's a example of the big side of technology as we scale.

>> Cool. Cool. So why are you doing this? >> I have I have very strong driving forces. It really comes from uh my family. Uh I grew up in a family my mother was the environmental industry >> and I watched her work uh on Love Canal and some other really big important uh

environmental projects >> and I chose when I did my whole career was always on the environmental side of things. So that's what I care about and I have this theme we have 20 25 people now. I really like to emphasize that one of the most important things you can do with your life your big opportunity is

what you do with your career. And so not only me doing that but I try and hire smart young people and get them to do that as well >> who we might be hearing from. >> I hope so.

So uh I so I want to I want to understand further >> uh I guess you know we've talked about how to understand this space examples of things that you've been doing >> but uh again uh without strictly defining it but >> whatever you would describe as this industry >> yes >> over the course that you've been

involved from when you were working with large firms to when you started next strong how have things changed >> few noticeable ways so innovation has exploded Uh I think uh creating new technology via startups uh was not such a major theme when I started my career and now it seems to be where all new

innovative technology comes from. This building has over a hundred startups in it. >> Yeah. >> All all commercializing hard tech sustainable technologies. >> So so you're saying in uh in the course of the industry at the beginning a lot of the innovations are coming from the bigger firms.

>> Correct. So would you say then that has transitioned >> or is it just an added capacity places like this? >> It's an added capacity. It's a added disruptive capacity. Large large incumbents never displace themselves. >> Got it.

>> It's almost impossible for them to do so or to even think about how to do so. >> So then I guess in in in the conversation of you've exited several companies. So this is coming from uh recent conversations I've had around the the journey of a founder of an entrepreneur at different stages. You

know, some seek acquisition and some are successful. Some seek just investment from a CBC and need to position themselves uh align with the the strategic initiatives of that larger corporation. So I guess when you're talking about uh innovation that's coming from the bigger institutions since you were involved in them, what does that look like? How do those things

uh happen >> in the bigger institutions? They happen extremely slowly. >> Yeah. >> And they happen probably with such deep knowledge of all the things that can go wrong and how much things can go can cost that they're paralyzed. And in this, as you know, in the smaller companies, they happen very nimly, very

quickly, very scrappily >> and with people just dedicated upon solving a certain problem. Yeah. And um in fact their survival is based on it. >> So so when we're talking about then let's let's pick an example. I'll have you pick of one of the companies that you've exited. Y >> if you could talk about the stage at

which you got involved. >> Yes. >> And then how you understand where the technology was and what it meant for a technology to scale. A lot of the people in the Grove community, a lot of the people that read the newsletter that I talked to, founders, um they're at way different stages. a lot a lot of earlier

stages where they're still lab scale. I don't know if TRL um early earlier stages >> early I'm not great at TRLs either. >> Okay. Okay. So, we'll just say yeah earlier stage. So, so a lot of the conversations are like oh in 5 years once we get this place but I've had conversations around financing these

things but >> y >> building them physically this is the first time I'm able to talk about it. So let's just choose one example uh how you got involved, how you physically put the things in the ground, how long it took, and what made it successful.

>> Great. So let's say the third one I did was a company called Myriad. We we went from being on top of a bench literally in seven liter fermenttors when I joined the company and rapidly. Um so it had been around for 7 years and the science was solved. It was sort of mature in

that respect. they had an organism to scale and they had done one previously but the team had never been in the field. So we went to a lot of um scaleup and and of organizations is growth around third party outreach which sounds sort of uh simple but we went out and found the

best manufacturing site to literally go from seven liters to 50 gallons and then 200 gallons in Wisconsin. Um >> what what did the company do? uh they were uh um sort of a dairy uh scallet facility. So it was fermentation. Okay.

>> To um a complex downstream process to a high-grade polymer chemical called senic acid. >> Cool. >> So it was a route to renewable plastics. >> Sweet. >> And so that so that was seven liters or two gallons. Uh up to 200 gallons.

That's 100x right there. >> Um >> how long was that? >> That went well. That was maybe that was three months. >> Okay. That was three months. Um, and then we we had to go out to um, at the same time I had joined the company and written a grant that awarded us $50

million from the Department of Energy. >> Congrats. >> And to win this grant, thank you. It was a good three months ago. >> Um, >> you had to be shovel ready to build a plant. So immediately we deployed during the contract negotiating period to Mexico City.

>> Oh wow. to a large I took a whole group of maybe 10 or 20 folks to Mexico City which was a great experience and ran started to run there for 3 to six months um one of the challenges when you deploy at that scale so that was 20,000 LERs to 50,000 LERs so probably another 100x uh

plus downstream processing plus making final product like a whole integrated >> So you went from 2 to 20,000 that was the jump >> the jump was um about 1,000 L to 20,000 L. Yes. >> Wow. >> That's is that normal?

>> Uh those are normal. Uh bio scales are usually 10 to 20x 10 to 20x. >> Okay. Wow. >> And and then one more 10 to 20x. A commercial scale was >> four 400,000 liter or 100,000galon tanks that were 80 ft tall.

>> Got it. That's >> 22 acre site like really large. >> Um >> so I'll just say it's fun. We are under a lot of pressure, right? And um one of the things about fermentations is they can fail. And so our first 10 to 12 runs actually were not successful over two to

three months like right before we had to get it done. And we were all in this very industrial plant in East Tapalaba, Mexico City, which is uh where prison is sort of a rough part of the city. >> Um I will say I started to bring my team by the statue of Virgin Mary every

morning [laughter] for good luck as we went in there. But it's it's unbelievably it can be so stressful when things >> but we um passed that. So let's say it took 6 months to scale to that scale and that was the data we used to design a plant 6 months and build it 12 more

months. >> Insane. >> So years and and commission started up for six to nine months more. >> So I got a lot of I I do a lot of months. Well, I I do want to hear more about the uh >> the end of that, but some to just to pull something away from

>> that experience when there's a founding team, when there's an engineering team, because now you're doing this at Next effectively helping other teams do this because you've done it so many times. So when you run into a company that is at that stage, let's say you said a,000 to to 20,000 or so, you know, I don't know

how standard that type of thing is, but when they're ready to make that jump, what are certain >> misconceptions that are happening? What are certain best practices that they can consider? You know, >> well, one of my big takeaways from this is that all things we think of as technical scaling are really

organizational scaling, too. They're people scaling. I mean again like imagine bringing 15 people down to Mexico City for 6 to 12 months at a time. Um so your success depends on respect for the technical teams, respect for the business teams, cross company integration. Uh it's really essential.

That's I'll say a huge takeaway. And um wow, anything we do you'll see is like visual, it's colorful, it allows the quietest people in the room to speak as well as the business team to understand the technical team and vice versa. So like all these people elements are really huge.

>> So one of the biggest things from scaling from a th00and to 20,000 is people oriented. >> Absolutely. >> Oh, that's good for me to hear because I don't know much about the engineering side. >> Yeah. No, no, you know how to be decent to people and and that's important. It's really important.

>> That that is that is really interesting to me. Um out outside of uh something uh with the people skills, is there anything particularly technical or is or is it really specific to the company? >> Because the other the next skill I was going to mention was also a human skill.

It's called >> Go ahead. >> grit and persistence. I'm telling you, um, you know, planning, executing, and and really, it takes a lot of endurance and persistence to go on a three-month scale up run that takes 12 to 15 months uh 5,000 miles away from your family.

>> That's very cool. >> So, number two rule also is personal and technical. >> Got it. And do we want to roll it out with a three? Because we can stop at two. That's okay with me. think about, you know, so like the the wise words of scaleup is understanding where you're going. So having those people around who

have operated built a real commercial plant and can pull that back down and says, "Aha, you're at 1,000 LERs. You're going to that middle stage. You have to balance these two things." Uh you have to bring on commercial elements which are probably tougher on your process than lab elements. So we call that

design to scale. Um, but you can't fail, right? You can't be there running your fermentation and it and it dies and it dies. And that's we call that design not to fail. So you have to balance >> very cool >> safety with uh being less conservative because you need that for economics.

>> So then last last question about this um this example, but uh that was another uh project that led to acquisition. So correct when they're when you're we just talked through some of the things for a founder to consider going from a,000 to 20,000 you know let's say they moved to Mexico City it all went well 12 months

very stressful very lucky but it worked out so >> what is uh how does acquisition happen in the space you know what from your perspective you know how's that involved >> yeah so the original view that I had going to all these companies was this idea of taking a technology scaling it um starting your own operating company

and you heard how daunting the scale is just in size to build like a 686 acre site is a large commercial endeavor. You also have to employ a completely different set of people, operations people, hire 200 people, get good at that. Um, while I liked doing that, I also learned along the way partners and

colllocation really can derisk and accelerate that process. Um, >> so more and more and more, as much as I like to build stuff with the clients we work with today, >> joint ventures look colllocating that plant you want to build on a very similar plant. So you don't have to create steam, water, wastewater. You

don't have to know how to run a lab and an office and supply chain. >> Um so so I am very in favor of these partnerships and that is indeed what we did uh with Marriott. >> Got it.

>> We got acquired by a Thai National Oil Company. >> Nice. >> And when we first met in Lake Providence and I showed them everything we had to do, they immediately gave us and me 25 engineers >> immediately.

>> Yes. and [laughter] and and they worked there for six to 12 months themselves and that's really what completed the plan. >> Yeah. So that was that that was uh the follow-up is you know post agreement you know the whatever they're there they're still the thing to deliver on.

>> Absolutely. >> So you're saying that took about >> 12 months post >> yeah post mechanical completion it took 6 to9 months to commission and start up 43 process units. So this is this is why they call it toughte. [laughter] Um and then ultimately the conclusion of that is we had a test run. Um which which

turned we had to satisfy a test run which turned our debt from into operations. Basically we said we proved the plant. Yeah. >> We built it and now we could service our debt. And that's like completing from start to finish >> a scallop.

>> Cool. Um, I'll say somewhere along the way, Louisiana had the coldest winter it ever had, January and February, >> and none of the equipment was freeze protected. So, we lost over >> a million dollars worth of piping and equipment at a time when we were trying to pass our test run.

>> So, it was very harrowing. We got it done maybe 3 days before the deadline to get it done. >> Well, so genuinely though, cuz that sounds absolutely insane. It was tons of money. Yeah, that's a ton of money. Like from >> from a personal perspective like having this much of your life dedicated to this

thing, this you know success of of finding this partnership like doing good for the world and then this happens like >> genuinely h how do you navigate a a a span of time like that and not abandon the project? um sheer real true persistence and grit and and and in this instant >> the operators, the supervisors, I mean

those guys had to go for over a month repair plant in January that was covered in ice. It was really difficult. It was difficult on them. Um and it was persistence and grit and I would say team and having honestly fun when you do this. So like my job in organizing like the test run included you know getting

the M&M's with the themes on it. Our theme was called March Madness because you know and and we just do things to lift the teams through know 100 people every morning at 7:00 >> assigned out of a central control room to commission and start up a plant. So did you because I I know a lot of um the

culture comes from top comes from the people leading the project but did you have people dedicated to the culture of the team? >> I would say I the leader the leadership itself had varying styles of of experienced leadership and plant but we didn't have a culture >> got it >> person it was self-generated.

>> Got it. Got it. All right. So I could talk to you for hours about uh the different projects because even that alone I think you know we touched the surface of a lot of that. >> There's a lot more detail to go into. Um it's really cool that you're taking these experiences and and you literally

created a company as far as I understand it. You said hey we've done this successfully. You've done these different plans like there is a playbook here that that no one has put forward and this is this is what you guys are doing at Nextstrong. So uh you 2018 about >> Yeah. Yeah. In in in exactly December

2017, but we got going in 2018. >> Okay. >> And when you say the word company, we became a company because three or four other commercialization veterans joined me. Hervey Durant, Lita Roach, uh Leah Stalman. We had all done this together and we had very different and like a really good founding thing to

know is have four founders who are different. So we were all very compatible we could hand off to each other. We had small overlap in our skills but we had a lot of different skills as well. >> Great. Got it. Okay. So what I what I did want to get um uh an idea of is from

your perspective in uh the years that you've been doing nu >> what's happening in the industry to my so it's interesting from my perspective not knowing a lot >> right >> I'm like how many of these plants are going up you know what I mean how many different engagements can you really have uh but from talking to you it

sounds like there's a lot happening so >> so what is happening >> okay so um one of the cool ideas we had is we are not just one industry whatsoever. We are um anything that's sort of a large capital intensive process industry. So we have the ability to shift and we started doing this

consciously. At one point in time 70% of what we did was food. So in 2019 2020 food was happening and um frankly our team got a little sick of just making food. [laughter] Um so we did lots of possible foods. We did vicilium, we did egg white proteins.

So we consciously do uh water and wastewater. We do mining and minerals, we do um recycling, anything that's sort of like circular economy type stuff. So what's changed is um United States the focus on things has had a lot more things that are about onshoring domestic manufacturing about um supply chain security. Some of these applied to

bioindustrial manufacturing but mining and minerals, rare earth magnets, stuff like that. So our projects have shifted a little in that way domestically. Um the second thing that's changed is we really focus international too. So in 2025 a lot of capital projects stopped here but we I had was fortunate enough to work with German government in their

uh circular bioeconomy um program called sprint innovation. >> Wow. >> And we put a foothold in there and the EU is funding all sorts of sustainable technologies. Again that idea that sustainability is making the things you need with the resources you have. And so they're buying energy from a whole variety of sources who they're in point

of fact at war with. Um so there's tons of interest globally in sustainability, food internationally. Um and we have kept on building stuff this whole time like we're busy. Um I think it's because we shift areas and we work at small, medium, and large scales. Uh less federal funding I will say.

>> Okay. So those are a ton of different spaces. So again from my perspective not having built one of these, [laughter] how how common are these deployments and how specific to the industry or some other variable are these projects?

>> Um do you mean what's in common with them or how how frequent? >> Yeah. So I so I wanted to ask like you know what what is a common theme across deployments but I don't even know if that's a a question to ask because I don't know how different deployments in wastewater are from critical minerals

for example. >> Uh right they're pretty similar I would say not not on the surface common themes are like founders and scientific teams have totally spent all their time concentrating on their core technology and not on the thing that is in common which is everything around it.

water wastewater steam air roads buildings, fire loops, natural gas lines. So, so the reason, one reason they're pretty common is the core technologies are only 30 to 35% of any complete plant. Um, and the second just that idea of what does this look like at scale and now how do we build intermediate steps? So, same ideas. So

can you can you explain to me what uh you said uh at at any facility the core technology is only about 35%. So everything else is like standard offtheshelf processes to support that. >> It's uh yeah well it's not um specific to the technology itself. That's correct. So, if you looked at that large

plant in Louisiana we were talking about, um, it was maybe 20% fermentation, 20% downstream process, and I mentioned 43 units we had to commission. We had a $7 million waste to our treatment plant. Like, we literally built roads, we brought natural gas pipeline, we brought power.

>> Wow. >> That adds up to a lot of the cost. And a key thing and it it's sort of a blind spot on the one hands. Um again, labs, buildings, steam, air, fuse stock storage in, product storage out. While that often means things cost more than founders thought, it also means that

collocation makes a lot of sense. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Or joint location with another person doing something. That's why scale up facilities work because there's only 30% of the investment as specific to a technology. >> So selfishly, >> yep, >> very curious about this. when we're talking about um factories to this

extent, how are you involved with the conversations uh with a utility or or like if you're connecting to the grid for power or if you're um you're generating your own power on site like what types of technologies are being deployed?

>> Um we help owners with their interactions uh with with the city. It it it's case dependent. They tend to be able to >> have enough business development skills to do it. Okay. The one they forgot is to go visit the local wastewater treatment plant the first day they're in town. Um, and I'm serious, nobody thinks

about that, but that's a important part of sustainable technologies. The, um, there's a mix of whether they generate their own power or not. >> Okay. I would say um if you're trying to you know I do think a lesson I learned along the way which sounds not that sustainable is it if you're developing

an emerging sustainable technology and you tie it to another emerging sustainable technology your odds of success actually aren't doubled they're reduced >> right so so we help people first and foremost scale their own technology and then make sure they have like sort of mature sources of energy and power.

>> Got it. >> Um, >> just >> cool. So, three more small questions for you. >> First one, when you say sustainable, you said making >> the most with what you have, >> making the things you need from the resources you have.

>> The resources you have. Yep. >> So, does that >> I like that because it's not political and it's not tree hugging. It's like this is just a practical thing. What are we going to do in 20 or 25 years?

>> Right. Right. So well well that's that's why the followup to me is like >> and I I do I think it's easy on the surface to be polarized about this question but it's very complicated when we're talking about fossil fuels and not but what it sounds like if you do have like fossil fuel reserves you know to

that state that definition of sustainable it is like building more fossil fuel capacity and that's typically not what people think about sustainable >> I would not have gotten there either. >> Yeah. Um, no. But I I I say I >> without that.

>> Um, no. Because they're they're not forever. You know, there's advantages to the United States. Yeah. I I do think about this to, you know, disadvantage any country to lead um in a technology field for their own prosperity. Okay. So, um if you do happen to have more fossil reserves, you're still probably smart. They call

it energy abundance. That's right. That's how we talk about >> adding in other sources of energy. Um because for better for worse, the curve on energy usage hasn't changed. >> Um you mentioned something I'd love to comment on.

>> Yes. >> My operators in all these plants, my guys in Louisiana, >> they were at one point in time in oil refineries. The next point in time they had renewable feed stocks. They worked on our plants. >> They cared. They love supplying our country with what we need. And there's actually no no politics around it at

all. Um, most of the large projects we do, hund00 million dollars or more are on the Mississippi River. And believe me, it's just these are apolitical plants. Um, people all get along and like like working in them and don't spend their time worrying exactly about what it's doing. Yeah, that's my experience.

>> That's why I love this space. We're talking about what we need, you know. >> Yeah. Um the second one I have to ask is about AI. If anything's happening in your world, if your your clients, things like that.

>> Well, so we're committed to um our world, our entire world and our um world of delivering process technologies is um has great opportunities through AI. Okay, there's companies dedicated to doing what we do using AI. What we've found is we use we use the best tools available. That's our that's our obligation to our clients. Um

we find in our work AI plays out meaningfully in quality of what we can do as well as time or effort and we sort of have essentially expert intelligence. Uh we start with 20 plant designs that look like where we're going.

>> Yeah. >> Um so we use it to the extent uh we can. We max it out. We have a program. your next guest is in charge of our AI deployment program. >> We call it project train. Um and um it's a great opportunity for us. We've seen mid-level advances and I think

mostly because >> we bring such we bring we start we have the expertise starting point and then the end point is um you've got to check and make sure a plant is safe. A design makes sense. There's always a 25% expert layer on the top. And the last thing is we're very we're physical in what we do.

>> Yeah. >> We like to commission startup plants. Any picture you see of us, we're doing something. So we're not we're not just standing around uh sitting at computers. Um >> so it's been positive. We've seen some good advancements. Um but we also see a lot of feel strong in our position because if anything, it expands what we

can do. >> Yeah. So, >> well, last question for you >> cuz this has been amazing. I think I'm leaving with more questions than I have when I came in, which is a good thing. >> That happens sometimes when people talk to me.

>> Uh, but I'm curious with all this work that you've done and all this work that is to be done. What inspires you? >> Oh, smart, awesome people I work with in my own company who you'll meet and all all it's so great to work with all the startups we work with. They're really

smart, bright people who are dedicated. It's cool. I'm lucky. I love my job. I get up every day. It's exciting. >> Awesome. Well, this this conversation definitely inspires me. So, thank you so much John. >> Good to hang out.

>> Then we'll get rain over here. Oh, welcome to I guess this is like one and a half episodes today because we have a special guest from Next Run who we're here together in Greentown Labs and again without sponsors it would not be possible to interview awesome people doing awesome things like Raina.

Welcome. So, we just got a rundown of Next Strong, the industry, what you guys are doing uh from John and we're bringing you in to really get deeper about uh the things that you've been working on and uh your experience at the company. So, before we get into that, you give a brief introduction of

yourself and what you're building. >> Yeah, I am the business analytics lead at Nexter. Background is actually in biology. I was uh doing my master's at tus um before coming to next rung and was introduced through my PI um to John um and have been working with next wrong ever since.

>> Nice. Is there any particular reason you chose biology? >> Um I wanted to be a doctor. Did a couple internships in wet labs and hated it. So um >> I have a lot of friends like that. So that's good. So the lab I was in was doing some uh studies on the economics

of the science that we were doing. Interesting. So that's how I yeah got started. >> So then because I'm new I'm very new to the industry and everything that you guys are doing. I I understand a lot more now than I did I guess an hour ago.

But uh how do you describe the space that you're in and what you guys are doing? What Next is doing? We work with all sorts of companies across industries. Um, but we're mainly focused in clean tech. Um, that can mean anything from alternative proteins to critical mineral recovery. So, a lot of different industries.

>> Do you have favorite? I know you came from a biology background, but >> yeah, I I enjoy the alt protein space a lot. I used to work in a cultivated meat lab where we were trying to grow neat stem cells. Um, so yeah, anything in that realm kind of uh has my heart, I

guess. >> Cool. So, in the in the in the four years that you've been at Next Strong, how has I guess we'll start here. How has your personal time changed your your role, the work that you've been doing?

Yeah, when I started at Next Strong, the company had done a couple of technoeconomic analyses, very basic spreadsheets. Um, and when I joined, John really wanted to build out that side of the business um, and make cleaner, more usable tools um, for our clients. So, I started by just getting thrown into the fire and doing some of

these analyses. But um my focus for the first few years was really cleaning up the models, making them visual and making them usable for people so that uh they could uh not just generate reports based on what their economics uh were projected but actually like pull these models up for their investors and use it

as a communication tool. >> Wow. >> Um >> interesting. >> Yeah. So, so were is there any uh playbook for how those types of reports were displayed or done or was it really ad hoc or is it ad hoc in the industry?

Is that why it's so important that you guys are doing what you're doing? >> Yeah, there's I think very little guidance out there on what these models should look like, how they should be done. Uh counter example is maybe like life cycle assessments which have pretty strict um rules on uh how you should be

accounting for uh carbon emissions um because that's I guess more tightly regulated but technoeconomic models don't really have any um rules or regulations like that. So it really ends up >> getting left to companies to decide how to go about a tea. So we tried to kind of standardize that process and yeah

have a standard >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> way to do that. >> So So then So I think it's really interesting what you said about a tea as a communication tool. Is that language that people in the industry use to refer to teas because I just think that's fascinating.

>> Yeah. I think less so. Um, I know a lot of people come to us asking for just to tell them what their cost of goods are. They say, "We're targeting two bucks a kilogram." Um, we need a model to spit that out and show that to investors. Um, and we kind of push back on that and we

try to make something that will help guide people um through their path to commercialization. So um telling you where you are today versus where you are expecting to be 5 years down the line um we find that to be much more valuable.

>> So what you're saying selfishly is so interesting and I want to stay on it because because I think there's so many uh founders, there's so many companies, there's people that are building these technologies and they look at they're very technical. I mean that's how they're so successful. So, can you speak a little bit more to why? I mean, I I

love the term tea as a communications tool, especially for investors, but I would assume additionally potential customers and and or or or joint venture partners or something like this. Um, [snorts] how what are misconceptions that you just started speaking to? What are some misconceptions that people leading these companies have and uh how

have you seen it successfully be used as a communication tool? >> There's a common saying garbage in garbage out. Um a lot of people uh see teas as kind of flimsy because you can put in whatever assumptions you want and make it spit out whatever outcomes you want it to say. Um, which is why I think

having a third party do a tea for your company is really valuable because you have that um external validation making sure that you're putting in reasonable assumptions um especially in places where uh your team might not have expertise. Next, for example, is primarily an engineering consulting company. So, we have a lot of experience

designing plants. So our technoeconomic analyses they really end up being uh plant designs, process designs um and we work with our clients um to not only build out a model but to sort through some process design questions that they might have um especially thinking about their process at scale when they might only be um working in the lab. Another

aspect is using TAS to drive uh R&D efforts um and focus them on what really drives the needle in terms of economics. People usually come to us when they're asked um by their investors to develop a tea. But I think more of the value lies in um how a TEA can help a company

identify major cost drivers and um really hone in their R&D efforts um to try to bring those costs down. A lot of the time people will be focusing on things that will only marginally move cost. So TAS can really help in that regard.

>> First of all, I love this. I that was so cool. Um I'm curious as far as T are you still working on TEAS? >> Yeah. Uh, are you working on TAS in a different way or is it mostly the same just like different kinds of projects?

>> Yeah, I guess so. >> Is it like exactly the same as when you started? Like >> I mean, we've started to like incorporate the sustainability accounting into those models. Like that's something we're building out. But >> well, I guess for you personally, um, so this stuff is interesting. That's why you've been doing it. That's why you are

doing it. Um, you said for the first few years it was like figuring out these things, doing a couple of your first like major pushes and like standardizing the process internally, which is cool. >> Is there anything that you're doing now or anything that I guess you will be doing or something that you're excited

about relative to your work at Nexron or is it mostly what we just talked about? >> It's mostly that. I guess there's applications of it kind of that are different than just building one model for one client. >> Do do you like doing that work?

>> Yeah. >> Okay. So then is is it like across industries like how industries compare to each other or just like specific projects to project to project tea? >> Yeah, just project to project tea I guess. >> Okay. So when it comes to teas uh I asked John a similar question I guess

about like high level about approaching a plant how much is standardized and how much is specific to a certain project. So when we're talking about a tea the numbers are specific to a company but is there a standard application of this thing this tea to uh an industry or company or does it vary project by

project? Yeah, in some ways it's standardized. Um, we do have an internal template that we start with. Um, it has built-in engineering assumptions, especially around sizing equipment and uh, utilities estimates that are kind of the same regardless of what you're working on. But, um, the rest of it is highly tailored to the client and the industry.

So using the same template we've done direct air capture tea um to tell you how much ton of carbon captured costs and that's also been used to I guess estimate uh the cost of a kilogram of textiles recycled.

>> Cool. So are are there any situations where uh it can get more complicated where it's like you know you guys start out with the template and it's good but then you find that you need several of these like I I don't know how many uh a particular company needs.

>> Yeah definitely um it's an iterative process so especially as a company scales um their technology is scaling with them and moving across time. So a lot of our clients we continue to work with over 2 or 3 years um and we can make that model change with them. I think that's one of the nice things

about working in an Excel model versus clunky software model working with a a team of real people. So as we're working hands-on with these clients technologies um we can come back and translate that into their model um so that it's highly tailored to what they're working on. So in this work that you're doing, I know

we went deep on the TA stuff that is very interesting to me. Uh but is there any hurdle that uh you keep coming in contact with or that you're uh dealing with right now um that makes it difficult for you to achieve what you're trying to do and how is it also an

opportunity? >> Yeah, next primarily focuses on very early uh early stage technologies. Um so a lot of our clients are still working out of a lab but with teas we're usually trying to tell the story of their economics at scale. Um so trying to get from lab scale data to a commercial scale economic model um can often be a

hurdle. So you tried to let or you try to tell people not to get bogged down in the details of collecting all the data in the lab that might not necessarily tell the story that you're trying to tell at commercial scale.

>> But I assume you guys have done it several times successfully. >> Yeah. With almost every project that we've done, they're early stage companies whose story we're able to tell at commercial scale. >> Nice. Um, >> so I guess that's that's the opportunity then.

>> Yeah. Um, and I think it does offer the client a really good opportunity to um kind of pick their head up out of the lab and um really think about what their process is going to look like down the line.

>> Yeah. >> Sweet. Well, with all the work that you're doing and all the work left to be done, I'm curious what inspires you. I think being in this space here at Greentown is really inspiring. Um there's so much happening here every day. Um and all of the companies here are doing really good work. So

>> nice. Well, this conversation was definitely inspiring to me. I do want to shout you out for unplanned podcast and your fit is so on point down to the socks. >> So I app I appreciate silly socks. So that's why >> they do have cats on them. They have cats on them. That's good. Well, thank

you, Raina. I appreciate it and I'm looking forward to the next one. >> Thanks so much for having