The Right Way to Reforest the Planet | Jad Daley, President @ Terraformation

Today on the show we have Jad Dailyaly. Jad is president at an international organization called Terraformationation. Terraformation as we talk about in the episode does reforestation correctly. Loaded statement. What does it mean to do it correctly? Uh, but I was glad to find out that Chad had a very specific answer about what that meant. And it led

to a bunch of other curiosities about what forestation means, reforestation, because to my understanding, just like carbon markets, there's a lot of bad press around it, and there's a lot of people that have executed it poorly. So, uh, I was very interested to to to learn about what terraformation actually does and how they're, uh, legitimately, uh,

executing on their goals. So, it was very educational for me. I know it will be for you. Thank you as always to our sponsors, Clean Techch Growth Lab. If you're looking to grow in clean tech, they are the people to do it with. And as always, the producers of this podcast, Craz Friends. And with that, I

give you Jad. Oh, welcome to another episode of The Grove. Shout out to our sponsors mentioned just before this, but without them it would not be possible to interview awesome people doing awesome things like Chad. Welcome. >> Uh, thanks so much, Blake. I'm stoked to be here. Uh, this is going to be fun.

>> That's right. I like that you're showing up and you're repping. I like this little Terraformation logo that I get to look at so I don't forget where you're from. Um, before we get started, uh, if you can give a brief introduction of yourself and what you're building.

>> Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, Chad Daly, u, and I've been working in forest, uh, conservation, restoration, really forest solutions, I think, is the best way to describe what I've been, uh, up to for 25 plus years now. And, uh, uh, and that just comes out of a foundational belief I have personally. And I think

demonstrated proof, uh, in our in our country and around the world that trees and forests um, inherently deliver a lot of incredible things for people, for biodiversity, for climate solutions. But if we're really smart in the way that we go about um for for example, how we care for forest, how we restore for forest,

how we mobilize society um uh to invest in and uh the kinds of actions that are necessary for for optimizing our forest, um we can get a lot more uh progress and impact in each of those areas. So I've been fascinated with kind of solving that puzzle uh here for 25 plus years.

Um and uh and I've done that predominantly in two ways in a series of nonprofit organizations that I've worked for. Uh the honor to work for the trust for public land um uh where I had a chance to create the first climate change program American Forest where I just recently stepped down on the 150th

birthday of that August found in 1875. My last day and was was the 150th birthday party in 2025. Um, and for about a little under nine years, I was the present CEO there where I'm really proud to say I think as we crescendo to our 150th anniversary, I think we we kind of rediscovered some of the best of

our past and blended with the best of future and really put American forest in a very strong place as a as a a true leader for the forest climate and forest solutions movement in the United States and grew the organization about 10fold in the span of seven years. um you know to be a really strong leader for the

country and accomplish some really significant things like securing 14 billion dollars of federal investment through the inflation reduction act infrastructure law in forest solutions practices uh you know across America so um that was a really exciting exciting stretch and and now I'm serving as the president of terraformation really an organization that trying to do globally

the same things American forest uh has been doing for the United States I'm trying to be a service leader at the center of the in the case of both American Force and Terraformation. Try and be a service leader in the middle of the movement who tries to set everyone up for success. Not just do it all

yourself as an organization, but really create the a movement platform for everyone to do something like in the case of terraformation, our focus is to reforest the world the right way. And so what what do we have to do to create the capacity for governments and indigenous actors and nonprofit organizations and companies and local communities and

everyone who needs to be part of this >> to reforest the world the right way. Um and so as an organization we're focused on on building the movement and giving everyone those capacities but also doing it ourselves like a player coach you know for the movement. And so we want to lead by example actually going literally

doing reforestation work at big big scales on the ground with partners. So we're not just talking about what everyone should do and creating capacity, but we're learning ourselves out there in the field, delivering real progress and learning from that work on the ground. Um, and so president, my job is to help figure out how to make

terraformation as as effective as it can possibly be um as that kind of a of a service leader for the global reforestation movement. >> Cool. So, I'm not super familiar with this space as far as uh you know, who's acting in it and what you know, what the history of it has been, but it sounds

like you've had a deep uh relationship with the the public sector and so in this forestation space, how many of the organizations doing important work are from the public sector? How many are operating in the private sector? >> Oh, that's a fantastic question. Well, I think what's really one of the things I

love about this space is that it is in a lot of ways quite evenly balanced uh across government, >> corporate actors, and civil society, which I'm throwing nonprofits and sure, you know, community based organizations into that category. Um, and in the government's category, I'm including indigenous governments, and so, you know, all forms of of of governments and

uh over uh people who own land um and uh and have some kind of jurisdiction, if you will. And >> okay >> and so what's really interesting is uh you take the United States as an example um you know you have the US forest service um and it's kind of funny my last organization actually helped create

the US forest service through legislation where we realized we needed a single government agency in America to kind of coordinate everyone who was out there trying to care for our forests um and also to care for the forests that are owned by the United States like our national forest and so um back in 1905

created this this single government agency in the US government that kind of coordinates everything forest related and um and so uh you know they are they are this sort of source of science they're um this source of funding out to people trying to do work with forest and then they actually manage public public

lands then you have state governments and local governments they also have you know uh forest agencies that are managing land or helping private land owners and doing similar kinds of things indigenous uh uh you know tribes for example are also managing you know huge areas of land as well. Then you have on

the corporate side um you know you have a a significant portion of the land base in the United States and in other countries as well that's owned by for example industrial timber companies but also small holder like family ownerships for example that makes up a really surprisingly significant portion of the total land base um in a country like the

United States and around the world. So everyone from you know timber companies and and uh and and family forces are another big piece of the community. Um and then you've got um I you know really critical role for as I said civil society. So you know nonprofit organizations are are really vital partners with um uh you know with those

folks who are owning and managing land um providing science and technical assistance and and all sorts of different forms of partnerships to make forestry better um and even investing directly in projects um you know that that are being done on both public and private uh lands. And and then the last two pieces I'll mention are communities

have this huge vital role um that for example I'll jump out of the United States and jump over to Africa for a minute where as a place where terformation is very focused. The projects that we're doing are a partnership between the for example the government of Ghana um uh key nonprofit organizations um like uh Rita and Agro

introductions Ghana um who are are folks that do reforestation projects you know across the country and then we have local communities um in uh this one particular region of Ghana that are are the workforce for this work so it's creating huge employment the work that we're doing is kind of being organized by our organization the government and

then these project development partners uh but then the workforce and the economic benefit therefore the employment benefit is landing in local communities um who who are being trained and employed um to do this in in this case of the project in Ghana our Ketta blue project 5,000 hectares of mangrove restoration um and so everyone's getting

>> love mangroves that is so important >> you talk about tech right we'll talk about tech we can talk about machines to deal with carbon dioxide we can talk about you technology solutions for energy. Trees are just nature's technology for >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> simultaneously solving climate challenges, you know, carbon challenges, uh, resilience challenges, biodiversity challenges, and by the way, creating massive employment, addressing employment challenges by creating jobs, deploying trees as a as a solution. So, in this example that that I'm I'm giving here, you know, we're creating, you know, hundreds of jobs ultimately um, in

this very rural and low-income part of of Ghana. And so the the benefits that are coming locally are not just environmental benefits, but it's transformational. I mean, and I don't use that word lightly, that community members told me when I was there in March, it was literally transformational for, for for example, for youth

employment and women's employment in their community to have the jobs that are being created by this mangrove restoration project. So talk about triple bottom line, you know, great for climate, great for biodiversity, great for justice and sustainable economic uh development for people who need it the most. That's what that's what these forest solutions can do when they're

delivered the right way. But but it works it works best when all those different actors are coming in. There's one more key one in our sector I have to give a shout out to which is there are lots and lots of companies from the technology space by the way and other parts of the economy their business has

nothing really directly to do with forests but to achieve their um you know environmental and social goals they are and particularly climate goals in many cases um they're investing in forests like like their forestry organizations so you know shout out to Salesforce you know sha shout out to Amazon and Microsoft and so many so many you know

Pepsi Bank of America. I could just go on. There's so many companies um that are not forestry companies per se, but that are as involved in the forest sector as any nonprofit or anybody in our space. And I just I have to give huge love to all those all those companies from other parts of the

economy that are seeing forest as this essentially technology for solving the problems they care about. And uh and they're they're showing up in a huge way. And not just with money, but I mean they're they're hiring people who are foresters. they they show up with the same sophistication as any forestry organization. They're real thought

partners in the work that's getting done and how it's getting done. Um and so so yeah, that's a sneaky part of the forest community actually. All these companies that are just they're way geeked out on forest and they're they're way in it with us. Um and they're making a big difference with all their skills that

they're bringing to the table. >> So you you had said at the beginning one of Terraformation's goals is to deforestation the right way. Yeah. >> So, I'm curious about in your time in this space, what are examples of ways that what are what are examples of ways that forestation does not happen the

right way and how, you know, what is your definition of the the right way and how did you guys arrive at that definition? >> Yeah. Oh, I love that qu that's a super question. Um, you know, because I mean I'll just quickly draw like a parallel.

I think about um I was involved years ago um in some of the climate work I was doing on renewable energy sighting and it was back when like a lot of money was starting to flow into this in the US and there was a sense that great we need to get these renewables on the ground but

if they just go you know kind of whatever the most convenient places or you know we might not be most strategic in terms of balancing the sighting of these facilities with other considerations like natural resource protection and so let's get real cerebral about looking at all the land that could be available getting some

criteria for best places and not as you know not as uh places that would have more un uh unintended impacts and then let's drive that that climate solution of you know say solar for example to those places that are the best balance of you know solar uh potential and low impact um and or you know least

consequences. So I think for any of our um any of our solutions, we always have to be thinking about what's the what are the values we're trying to optimize on the solution side and what are the unintended consequences for other considerations that sorry I'm not sure why my screen just did that.

>> Yeah, me either. But that's that's worth celebrating I guess. So >> I guess I won't just anymore. Who knows? But I'm not sure. That's pretty funny. But um you know but but the bottom line is is you know in in forest just like anything else we really have to think about this balance of what we're trying

to accomplish and then the unintended consequences. And so a great example would be um and I I really I get frustrated because sometimes this is treated like it's the norm or it's or it's the dominant thing, but there have been situations where in terms of trying to use trees to sequester carbon >> um folks have said great well let's just

find whatever tree sequesters the most carbon um and plant it maybe even in the worst case in place of native forests that were sequestering carbon but just not quite as much or they have reforested an area that you know if we were really balancing all of our considerations like what's best for climate and best for biodiversity, we

wouldn't just pick the tree that sequesters most carbon that's only optimizing for one value. We'd say what are the trees that have a the best balance of great it's going to squester a lot of carbon and yeah it's also going to provide habitat for endangered species in this area right and so the

problem the thing that's hurt our movement is there these couple of examples I want to call you out because uh you know I think these [snorts] things have been sort of overdone but um where for example eucalyptus have been planted in places where you know that's not the native species and that's a tree

that grows very quickly a lot of carbon and so we're used for reforestation projects that were seeking to claim carbon credits and deliver carbon benefits. And so, you know, a lot of people latched on to that said, see, when you say you're using trees as a climate change solution, that's mean you're just just going to ignore

biodiversity considerations and just, you know, plant whatever trees treat trees like literally like a technology and just, you know, plant them in a willy-nilly way that and and not address the unintended consequences. So rule number one um uh from our perspective is that doing it the right way means getting the right balance between that

climate change benefit that we're going going for both the sequestration of carbon and and this is really important because it gets left out sometimes. It's not just enough to say great we sequestered carbon this was helping slow climate change. trees are critical defense against climate change when you pick the most strategic locations like

these mangrove forests for example um are critical to dealing with in fact flooding that's happening right now in this keta lagoon region of Ghana where where we're working and so we you know we're literally seeing play out this sort of flooding kind of uh risk in this region and the healthier the mangro

forests are in that area the more the better that they're able to buffer flooding events. So, if we're really smart, we're we're picking species and locations where uh we're getting great carbon sequestration and we're getting some kind of additional climate protection out of that tree species plant in that place. But the second

parent consideration is how does this relate to the needs of of bodiversity of you know different uh terrestrial and aquatic species. And so um we're really proud of terformation. We're we're trying to take that part to the nth degree. our our tree plantings are about 5 to 10% more biodiverse, more different tree species than conventional plantings

of people doing reforestation, for example, in carbon markets that we participate in. And we're really proud of that. And that's very much by design. We're saying we want to we want to make sure that um yes, we're getting that climate benefit, but we're also getting the maximum benefit for for protecting biodiversity, which is, as I'm sure, you

know, under pressure all around the world. And especially when if there's a type of tree or habitat that ties to an endangered species, we really have to take that as an opportunity um you know to plant those habitats to get their climate benefits and solve like an endangered species problem. That's the kind of double win that we're looking

for. >> Cool. And the last piece of getting it right is the people's side. And there has been a lot of concern and unfortunately maybe some of it justified from some of the, you know, outlier wrong examples out there of where in pursuit of making money with forest carbon projects. People have gone in and

they haven't dealt honorably with, for example, indigenous land owners in a community, they've been, you know, maybe deceitful in the way they presented the project or the benefits haven't been equitably shared between the folks developing a project and the and the people who actually own the land. um there hasn't been enough attention to

creating employment effect for the people who are actually in that place where the project is taking taking place. So we are fiercely committed to the idea that um if the if the trees come back and the biodiversity is healed but people aren't made better then it's a failed project.

>> We're not it might be a carbon project the money might be coming to cut the carbon benefits but if we get all the carbon benefits and it was disastrous for the people in that community that that project is a disaster for us >> and we think everyone should think about it that way. Doing it the right way

means >> designing these projects with the people benefits being just as important for as the carbon benefits even if that's not what you're being paid for. And so that means designing long-term employment. Um it means leaving infrastructure in place uh in the wake of the project like tree nurseries for example. It means creating

employment beyond just the tree park you know. So in our case we're investing in adjacent economies like uh cacao agroforestry or supporting aquaculture adjacent to the places where we're doing mangrove restoration. And then lastly, having a portion of just the money that's generated from say a carbon project going into a community allocated

fund. The community says, again, not connected to the forest at all. This is what we need like repairing the sanitary facilities in our community. And the community says this is what we need. This is what we want to put the money toward. And there has to be some share of of the funds from projects uh private

sector, you know, market driven project. We believe a really significant portion that communities can allocate to the stuff they they think is important. So every single person in the in the community whether they actually participated in say replanting that forest or not feels like yeah I was uplifted by this. I didn't just get the

forest, but there are other ways in which economically our community benefited and I was part of that >> inc. That was incredible. I app that's that's great. That's the type of definition I'm talking about, Chad. That was great. That three-part definition was cool. I think um so something that comes up. So it is it's really

energizing hearing about that because it's I'm glad that there's such a specific and you guys are e executing on that uh specific definition that you put forward. Something that I think always gets in the way of work um that you guys are doing and other people that are doing real work is that we could talk

all day about hey this is what we want to do this is great this our definition but the measuring the the stuff thereafter I think is something that it's it's it's not that these impacts aren't happening but I think a lot of a lot of push back is because it's not being uh tracked analyzed and

communicated back thereafter effectively. And something that's easy from what you said is the biodiversity piece where we could say like, oh, we should definitely plant these kind of trees because we need to be diverse and and about the, you know, the native species and stuff. How do you guys go about actually identifying like, yeah,

this native species is important like this is the right tree and this is the right amount of tree to contribute meaningfully to the biodiversity. um and and and ground truth, you know, how you guys are actually uh going about that. Do you utilize certain technology?

I mean, I know of like, you know, climate technologies that that map these things from satellite images, things like that. Like, how do you guys go about that? >> Wow. How many hours do we have here? Because I you're getting into my my kitchen here. This is the stuff I love.

>> I'm glad I I love wood being a wood wonk, you know, like geeking out on the the forestry details. Let's get into it. Um so, a few things to say. One is I talked at the very beginning of the this uh discussion about about you know yeah trees and forest provide these benefits

but what does it look like what does it look like to optimize them right and so that in the case of reforestation is the geeky details of forestry as I like to say you know it starts with what site did you select and how did you prepare that site for reforestation um in fact

even did you choose between once you prepare that site are you going to plant it or are you going to assist natural regeneration you then you have choices of what are you trying to bring back there and it's not even just the tree species but it's the genetics of those species and so in

a changing climate that really matters right like the same tree uh that comes from uh you know the gen that was genetic stock from the southern edge of the range versus the northern edge of the range will have different tolerance the southern part from the southern edge of the range if you're sourcing seed for

example from from that tree species in the southern edge of the range it's going to be more heat and drought tolerant than if you get it from the northern edge of the range so we can start to really get fine-tuned in terms of, you know, how do we prepare sites to bring forest back that are going to

survive and thrive? Um, how much are we planting versus assisting natural regeneration? What species and even what genetic uh strains of those species are going to be most optimized uh for for the site, you know, for for climate change and for biodiversity um and the long-term health health and resilience of this forest. Then there's the

planting techniques of it. Um, and you know, things like whether or not you use tree tubes and other devices that help trees kind of get through the early tough parts and how you manage the early establish the actual physical planting and the early establishment stage has a huge huge impact on survivorship and and

the vitality of the forest going long term. And then there's the how you take care of it over the long term. Like adaptive management. So you don't just say, "Hey, we replanted it. I'm sure it's going to be great." but rather what's the you know how do you essentially tend that forest especially

in those early years and so you're learning from what's doing well and what isn't and you're making adjustments where necessary so each one of those I think about as really four steps the the site preparation the tree species uh and the genetics the planting techniques and then the what you do after like in those

buckets there's a lot of fine skill details and um and opportunities for innovation >> so terformation are we're really anchored on innovation We were founded by Ean Wong, a Silicon Valley innovator and pioneer. And he said, "Look, I want to hack the I want to hack the reforestation movement. I don't just want to do reforestation. I want to hack

it." And so that starts with the forestry side. So we're really proud to have, you know, some of the truly leading people in the world. Uh, for example, one on our team who was one of the lead authors in something called the 10 golden rules for reforestation that was published by Cube Gardens,

considered one of the kind of leading manifestos on how to get reforestation right. You know, we had people like that on our team. And so we really geek out on those details when we both teach people how to design reforestation with that four-part approach I talked about and we also the projects we're directly

involved in. We're really going deep on the forestry side. But importantly to what you said there are other innovation opportunities too. And so just I'll just speak about one because it's techreated. Um you know we're we have a Silicon Valley DNA in our organization. And so we have some we have some of the the you

know the OGs of the Silicon Valley you know uh people who really know a few things about um about technology and so we have built a a technology platform called Terowware and it gets to exactly the question that you were talking about. You can use Terowware to track reforestation from literally where the

seed is collected in the field all the way through the nursery through planting and then reporting um out the results of that reforestation. And so it's it's a totally integrated data platform um for both managing the efficiency of the you know how much seed do I have, how am I doing, and the supply that I need to do

reforestation. So it's it's both a tool for managing the process, but it's also a tool for reporting. Um and so it really makes it uh integrated and and consistent to as you said, we can't just ask people to trust us. We really do need to show that we have done what we said we're going to do in these rigorous

plans that we're creating and we actually are getting the outcomes on things like carbon sequestration that are what these projects are premised on. Um and so we're really proud that we're using technology we think in some really innovative ways with Terowware um to make that happen. And and we're just just getting started. I mean we you know

uh you know your iPhone's up to what version 17 or something. You know [laughter] Terware is still you know somewhere down in single digits but we're we're challenging it's open source. We want it to be used by everyone. This is not some proprietary thing. We're actually our goal with all of our innovations is to give them away,

invent them and give them away as well. And so Terraware, we want everyone using it. Uh we want to support and learn from people's using it use of it. Um and make it the most powerful tool we can to help reforestation.

>> Wow. I'm that is I'm very excited to hear that genuinely. I mean because cuz seriously like that that uh piece that whole um monitoring making sure we're reporting on metrics of success and being like hey this is actually you know whether or not you believe in forestry or climate change or whatever like this

is the raw data about what is happening with our work. I think that's where a lot of especially in the non in the in the public sector that that that's what holds a lot of people up. So it's really awesome agree >> yeah to hear that you guys are doing that. So, uh, I got I I got two more of

my favorite questions and we haven't talked a lot. >> One last quick comment on your last point. I So, I want to give a shout out. This isn't just about, you know, terraform. I I want to give a shout out to groups like Sea Trees and others.

There are some there are some organizations that have been killing it on those data questions that you're talking. >> Oh, good. with I'm glad >> with uh with AI generated um these you know incredible data sets that are giving us >> remote sensed data on what's happening in forest like we've just I mean it when

I started doing this work it was like the prehistoric days compared to where we are now so I just want to give a shout out to the whole field but especially some of these incredible leaders like you know our friends at sea trees and others uh you know who have just been doing some of the most

pioneering work in the world to give us the data and also different dashboards and interfaces for that we can feed into tools like Terra were and that we can um that that all of us can draw on to get better information. So, I just want to say there's a a lot happening in the

field in that space you were just alluding to and and a lot of great people doing some hard work in in that. >> Yes, shout out. That's great. That's great. I love that. Um so, as far as uh we haven't talked a lot about this, but that that's fine because this I mean

this has been a such interesting information what we've been covering. But as as as it relates to your goals, your your terraformation, your forest, you know, um you care about reforestation, you care about these projects. As far as your goals, how you define growth of your company and and success. Uh first of all, what is it?

And second, what are some misconceptions that people have about uh reforestation? and you know and or like what are hurdles that have gotten in the way of you accomplishing those growth goals and how are they also opportunities for you to >> Yeah. Again, I I wish we had a few hours. This is a fun conversation and

those are important questions. Um so let let me say a couple things. Well, we start with the misconceptions, you know. >> Sure. Uh my my great friend Mark Benoff and I um had done some writing on some of this stuff together and and Mark and Salesforce have been just amongst the most insanely incredible leaders and

pioneers and partners anyone could ever dream of having in this work. And and Mark and I wrote a piece in Time magazine a number of years ago about about a trillion trees and the power of conserving, restoring and growing um you know and creating a net gain of a trillion trees on the planet and what

that would do for all of us. And I think from that point forward, you know, we we had a journey of of seeing a lot of people get excited and lean in, but also people can kind of misinterpret um what you're saying. Sometimes I think kind of willfully to be honest and and so, you

know, let's be clear, uh reforestation, which is our focus at at terformation, isn't in competition with conserving the forest we already have. Sometimes people act like it's a choice. Well, wait, you know, we have to we can't doing reforest. We have to keep the ones we have. But we can do both. Actually, we

have to do both. keep conserve the force that you have, manage the forest that you have well, but add to them, you know, uh and and uh you know, in the United States, um in my last organization, we were part of a study uh in the US that showed, you know, well over a 100 million uh uh acres actually

closer to 150 million acres of reforestation opportunity of all different kinds. Everything from trees on farms to restoring burned forest that that aren't being restored. So massive potential ways to expand our forest while we protect and restore the ones we currently have. So misnomer that those things are in competition. They're not.

Second thing is that using explicitly using trees as a climate change solution and acknowledging that um means as I said earlier that you're just going to only use trees for carbon and you don't care about anything else. You know they're just going to plant eucalyptus trees everywhere because hey they sequester a lot of carbon. No one's that

that's such completely the outlier. Those examples are like complete red herrings. This movement is about using native forests as a solution and taking actions that increases the carbon benefit they're already providing. So here's the thing. In the United States, I'm using a lot of United States figures, but in the United States, trees

and forests and forest products already sequester more than 16% of our carbon emissions. It fluctuations a little bit from year to year, but it's like 16 to 18% of our carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels being sequestered by trees, forests, and forest products in the United States. So it's not like a hypothesis. is happening and the only

question is it's going to go up or go down. And so this kind of should we can we afford to do a forest for climate? We can't afford to not do it. If we lose those car climate benefits we're already getting from forest, we're cooked. No chance. 0% chance. If you had to do 16%

more reductions from the energy sector, good luck with that. >> So, and by the way, with the wildfires that we're seeing right now, that's a step backwards. If we don't manage wildfire, that's actually taking us backwards on forest. So, we have to play offense and defense. And we got to play it like our lives and climate depends on

it because they do it. So this stupid misnomer that oh you know this is some weird outlier thing for climate. It's an addict. No way. It's already cooked into the baseline. And so we we we ignore it at our peril but we should play this forest game offense and defense as hard and as well um as uh as we can. And then

the last thing I'll say is one of the common misnomers on reforestation is all the trees die. Oh yeah. You know you plant a bunch of trees but but they came back and they were all dead. Sure. Have there been some failed plantings?

Absolutely. Um, you know, and what what happens? We replant and we learn from it. Yeah. And all across the movement, the survival rates are getting better and better and better as we're leaning into, as I said earlier, those geeky details of forestry. And I'm super super proud, you know, of uh I was just on a

webinar yesterday with our team. I'm hearing about how we're fine-tuning and getting better and better survival results, for example, and some work doing in Colombia by leaning into these forestry details. But listen al the last thing I'll say because I know we're tight on time is is around the organizational side of it. So

terraformation as I I alluded to at the beginning of this podcast is uh is undergoing a kind of 2.0 trans transformation. Um really kind of learning from our first six years as an organization and looking at the state of the movement and saying we got to do better. All of us have to do better and

go faster. We got to take bigger chances. We got to work harder. Find a find breakthroughs really not just more a little more the same. We got to hunt big jumps big breakthroughs. And so for termformation that's really focused on four things that we're trying to do be a voice for the movement and by the way

getting exactly to correcting the record in the way that you've so helpfully been giving [clears throat] me a chance to do here. >> Okay. >> What is reforestation really? How important is it? And what does it look like to get it right? Two be an innovator as we talked about. So create these kind of tools that do help us all

make exponential jumps forward in the quality and amount of reforestation that we're doing. Three train the world. do capacity building. So that's not just organizations like Terraformation or really well-resourced organizations like our friends at the Nature Conservancy, community- based organizations, indigenous organizations, everyone everywhere has equitable resources, access to resources, accesses, training, the ability to learn how to kind of

business plan their way to scaling up their organization, their activities. So we have something called the seed to forest accelerator. It's a third kind of a pillar of our action to go out and just literally train and support the world um in in doing this work the right way and scaling it up. And then the

fourth thing is we really believe in leading by example. So we're doing some of for example some of the largest forest carbon projects uh in the world including this 5,000 hectare mangrove project that I spoke about in Ghana just as as one example because we think it's really important. Don't just tell everyone else what to do. You got to

actually lead by example. Show learn by doing it. Um show progress by doing it. Um and we think that then feeds back into being a more effective uh movement leader. So those are the four things that we're we're 100% focused on doing.

And in order to do those better, you know, we were founded as a for-profit organization, but we realized, you know, the problem is a lot of those things don't pay for themselves. You we invented a mobile seed bank which can help uh people in rural areas uh store and successfully process and store more

of the seed that they collect where in places they don't have refrigeration, they don't have um the right facilities, they collect a lot of tree seed and a lot of it spoils um or they don't have the right processing facilities. Um and so we said, "Hey, we can give that capacity to people in rural areas around

the world. Um you know, by by turning abandoned shipping containers into this very high-powered mobile seed bankank." And the idea originally was we'll build them and we'll sell them. And then we realized, wait a second, the people who need these can't afford them. That's the whole point. And so long story short, was we realized to really take all the

good ideas that we have and get it out into the world, we we need to be a hybrid for-profit nonprofit organization. Interesting. Some of the things that we can do like carbon projects, we can use private markets and profitability to drive our mission into the world. But things like getting our mobile seed banks in the hands of

everyone who needs them, you know, that's going to be better done funded by government grants and philanthropy of people who really believe that giving seed storage capacity to the world is going to help advance reforestation in unbelievable ways. And so the last thing I'll say is, you know, we're not about counting the trees. We don't count

progress in what did terraformation do. The world doesn't care what terraformation did. The world cares what we did together. One team, one world. And so we measure progress and did we help the team do better? Did we give everybody the capacity to do this better? Yeah, we have our own indicators of the things we directly were involved

in, but that's just the icing on the cake. Um, and so in this hybrid for-profit nonprofit model, what we're excited about is we're finding partners on both sides of the equation and said, "Yeah, the the philanthropy types will say we'll support you to do these things that are building this foundation for everyone." And then we're finding, you

know, financial partners who want to come in and do projects with us and and advance projects that way, too. So, I think we're, you know, this model feels like it's it's well adapted for the future and and can unlock getting to the scale of things that we need to do.

>> Well, I appreciate that point because it it does speak to, I think, in a less conventional way than is usually discussed on on this show, but it does present uh a cool way of thinking about growth. um and not of trees but of your guys' well I guess of trees because it's

part of your mission but it it you know thinking about having a a hybrid model because it gives you uh access to different kinds of partnerships and and and growth is cool. So my last question for you with all this work that uh you guys are doing and that you have to be

done what inspires you? >> So um I love that question. Um uh and and this is the last moment we're going to say how many hours do you have? >> Um I I have to come back to one thing.

Um because they're just uh it it has stirred my soul. So I come to this from a very spiritual orientation. You know I'm a child to ministers and um uh you know and you know I found my way into a different faith actually as a Quaker you know in my own life. I I I I really view

this as an act of love, all of this. And I it's the most insane thing that I've gotten to spend my life professionally doing something I just I believe it's really good for the world. Like I've never feel I've never had a job. I just feel so grateful for that. Um and but

I've always in the work of forests of you talked about sort of where the the weird splits or the things that are misunderstood. You know, sometimes people think if you're talking about trees, you're not talking about people. And so my philosophy has always been these forest solutions are they start really with people people centered. It's

what people need to do to interact and care with these forests and and what they do for us how they uplift human lives is for me the foundational entry point to my passion. Doesn't mean I'm not completely motivated by bodiversity and and you know I could cry over you know birds. I'm just like crazy for

that. But but but I'll be honest, my personal motivation starts with the beautiful act of people coming together around uh doing these force solutions. Uh here in the United States, it's been like one of the most bipartisan things you could ever imagine. Like all lines amongst us dissolve when we together and we do this work. And I have seen

everything from saving lives in some of the most disadvantaged neighborhoods in America with urban tree cover that cools homes and streets to um you know to uh all you know just incredible uh transformation of large natural landscapes. >> But I'll just close with you know that I I was in Ghana this March um and uh you

know uh visiting um our partners that we have there. Ghana is you know the really the leading country for terform. and we're really trying to kind of prove out the model of what does success look like at the scale of the whole country. And so I was there for four or five days in

across the capital uh with our government agency friends and and University of Ghana and other sort of national partners talking about the work that we're doing and signing partnership agreements and those kinds of things. And I spent my last uh chunk of time there out in the Keta Lagoon uh region which is sort of like the Chesapeake Bay

of Ghana if you're from the United States. gives you a little context is just incredible giant estuary that has very large areas and it's globally significant a place for for biodiversity and wetlands. Um but where has some huge areas where the the mangrove forests are in exceptional shape and then some areas where they've been totally lost. And so

we're working in in some of these communities where they've been largely uh lost. And so these communities are kind of living with degraded fisheries and just all sorts of impacts of this foundational the tree that really anchors the whole ecosystem having been significantly degraded. And so just if you can imagine, I'm flying there from

Washington DC and I'm sitting in knee to knee basically in a circle, you know, with the our community partners and the median income there is $2,200 a year, >> you know, and uh I couldn't be I might as well flown from Mars in terms of the difference of context of Yeah.

>> Washington DC and the and here. and but to sit knee to knee and and to to say and then be able to say authentically if the mangroves come back and the fish come back and the birds come back um and are thriving and your community is not thriving then we will have failed

>> and that's really how we feel and and I could understand a thousand% if people in that community would say I'm not really sure I believe this you know you're in this for money or whatever or do you really care about us >> sure >> and to have the communion that we felt

in these meetings and discussion that we felt and to hear them say this is the first time we've had a new source of employment for young people in our community in like memory >> and um and to show like here's the here's how we put some of their early community dollars to work you know in

fixing things in our community >> um it was one of the most moving experiences of my life because I I've seen that connection between the environmental benefits and the human benefits in so many times I don't know if I've ever been a place where the >> the the the the scale the delta of you

know business as usual versus the change that was created by doing this work together and invest in this work together. I don't know if it's ever felt more stark to me and whether the the love and the communion that comes from doing this um across all boundaries and all lines ever felt more present. So

that's what motivates me that effect around the world over and over again. >> Oh Jad, if there's anyone else that is uh as inspired or fired up by the story, what's the best way to get in touch or follow along?

>> Yeah, thanks so much. Well, um, so terraformation.com, um, on the, uh, web is our a great starting point to learn more about our organization and, you know, you'll see within there are different ways to find more information and reach out and and get in touch with us and and see, you know, the opportunities to get involved.

Uh, we have a tree subscription program, by the way, for for individuals who who want to be involved, but organizational partners. we're we're in a place where we just we want to connect with everyone from individuals to companies to fellow non you know nonprofit organizations and others um in in the field government

partners and and others indigenous partners. Um so the website is a good is a good starting point but also um we are very active on social media. I'm very active on social media. I love it when people sh uh connect with me on LinkedIn um or or Instagram and LinkedIn's a particularly good place if people want

to connect with me and send me a DM or or whatever. And uh yeah, just always love uh meeting new people and talking to people in this movement. >> Awesome. Well, thank you for coming on having this great combo. I learned so much and I had some burning questions.

So, I appreciate it. I'm looking forward to the next one. Oh, >> Blake, this was great. Thank you so much for this time. I really appreciate it. >> Absolutely.