From Sustainability to Regeneration | Wayne Visser, Professor @ Cambridge & Católica Porto

Oh, today on the show we have Wayne Visser. Wayne splits his time between teaching at Cambridge University, Catholica Porto School of Business and Economics and working with innovative tech companies to uh develop the right strategy uh for growth. So, it was an interesting conversation. Uh I enjoy every once in a while, as you know,

bringing in guests with uh more academic perspectives because we're able to zoom way out on the phenomenon that is clean tech, climate tech, sustainability, whatever you want to call it, and analyze it from uh from different perspectives than people that are really in it and and and doing the work on a day-to-day basis. And so something that

we were able to discuss that I'd love to discuss is what is sustainability? Uh what does the term mean and uh one of Wayne's perspectives is that it actually is a dead term now. It's been used too much. People do not use it in the same way and what we should actually be

focused on is thriving instead of just sustaining. Uh there's a lot more uh that he elaborates on in that area. Uh but it was a very educational uh conversation. and I really appreciated his perspective on working also within large corporations on their sustainability initiatives and teach us about how those entities operate. Thank

you as always to our sponsors, Clean Techch Growth Lab. If you're looking to grow in clean tech, they're the people to do it with and as always the producers of this podcast, Craz Friends. With that, I give you Wayne.

Oh, welcome to another episode of The Grove. Shout out to our sponsors mentioned just before this, but without them it would not be possible to interview awesome people doing awesome things like Wayne. Welcome. >> Thanks for having me on. Good to be here.

>> What's happening? So before we get into it, if you can give a brief introduction of yourself and what you're building. >> Yeah. Well, uh, I'm Wayne Bisser and, uh, I've had a 30 plus career, uh, years in sustainability, uh, working always with business, some of it in consulting with Capgeemini, a strategy analyst, and then set up and

ran KPMG, sustainability services. Got various academic hats now that I wear with Cambridge University and with Catalika Porto School of Business and Economics. So something that uh the first thing I wanted to uh to get into because it's always interesting to me people that have been in the field for long enough to see this uh this evolution happen. I

wanted to understand when you use the word sustainability um because you know all the information out there about you like you said there's been a long career in sustainability. What does it mean to you now and how has that meaning changed over your career?

don't think the meaning has changed given that we we had a fairly clear definition fairly early on the the UN definition um which is about uh development that meets the needs of the current generation without compromising the needs of future generations. There was a political definition and it got translated for business into the triple

bottom line people, planet, profit by John Elkington and pretty much that's been consistently applied in that in that understanding. Uh I will say that some people because of the roots I suppose of where it came from and because corporate social responsibility came more from the social side for some people they have a

narrower interpretation of it being mainly about environment but uh that's typically not uh not how it's applied and if you look at the UN sustainable development goals of course they're across all all three areas economy uh society and environment but there has been an evolution. Uh it's been from I would say a couple of decades of trying

to build awareness, trying to convince people that we have these global challenges to um a decade or so I would say of of really trying to apply uh standards in in this area, develop and apply standards and uh and and now I would say a scaling of some of the technological solutions solutions which is uh where I'm focused

right now but also with you know sometimes two steps forward one step back it's not a straight line and we we get these waves that come and we can talk a bit more about that because we're certainly in what some people describe as a sustainability recession right now.

>> Yeah. So um so ju just just quickly for yourself personally did you always know that you were going to be in this field that you were going to be in academia that you were going or did something happen at some point?

>> I not exactly. I uh but it was a sort of a quest to research from fairly early on when I when I had to decide what to study. uh the two interests I had was was sort of uh philosophy and business and I went for business but I was always trying to reconcile the two particularly

the ethical part of of philosophy and religion um with with business and I was studying business at the time in Cape Town just in the leadup to the Rio Earth Summit of 92. uh the the the year I graduated from high school was the year they defined sustainable development, the UN. And so

it was really in the air and I and I quickly figured out well this is a way to anchor that uh interest that I have to try to find a way for business to be a positive force for change, not uh not part of the problem. Um and so I I didn't know exactly that it would it

would be a whole career in sustainability. I'm not sure when I started that there even was such a thing. Um but it quickly emerged so that by the time uh you know I I'd done a masters in in uh sustainability and then came back to KPMG to set up their services. it was it was clear that there

was uh a career to be had in in the field and it's it's uh I sometimes say I'm one of the few generalists that are still surviving because of course it's evolved so much now that you really have to specialize you have to be you know specialist in human rights in the supply

chain in Asia or you know uh climate change you know in in subsaran Africa or something like that so it's hard to be a generalist these Um, also the the it has continued to evolve and so we might get into this but I'm somewhat critical of sustainability these days. I I think it's become a very

limiting concept and practice uh and so I work more on on the concepts and practices now of uh of thriving or or regeneration uh which goes further. >> Very cool. Okay. So, well, that was a great transition because my next question was about in in the span of the time that you've been working in the

space that you've been working in business to uh construct certain practices, certain entities in a way that um you know pushed forward these sustainability goals or in your opinion created a sustainable business venture. Um so my the the question is how have you seen I'm glad that you feel like um uh the

definition as the UN has put it has been consistent and that it's been used in uh business contexts but the application of it I'm curious uh in your work how have you seen it be successful and then uh on the back end of your answer you could transition into um uh into whatever

critiques you have of it in ways that you haven't seen it be successful. and what it means to be successful. >> Yeah. Well, I guess the success has been that it's mainstreamed, right? When I started out, you really had to look for sustainability. There were a few companies that might have a green

product line or might uh you know have a campaign uh around human rights, labor rights or or pollution, something like that. But what we managed to do over the decades is to really adopt uh a management systems approach to sustainability. So we figured look if you can manage human resources uh you know using a management system and you

can manage marketing and you can manage finance why can't we manage sustainability and we had uh international standards like uh ISO uh 9000 which was the quality management standard and so that got adapted to sustainability first to environment uh with ISO uh um 14,000 and then related to social responsibility with 26,000 and then energy 50,000 and

so on. But what this essentially did was to say uh companies can manage this in a systematic way. You set goals and targets. You set uh you know metrics. You have programs and projects and budgets behind it. You have a a reporting and an auditing and a review process. And then it goes round and

round as a continuous improvement. What that's meant is that it's moved from being on the periphery to something that's almost like a voluntary philanthropic activity to something which is far more related to the core business which is where we needed to get to. So in other words, how does your uh product, your service and your uh

operations impact society and the environment for better and for worse and and that's a big move forward. uh that sort of integration that's happened. And certainly there's no big company today that doesn't have that kind of management system, that doesn't have you know sustainability uh managers, directors, uh doesn't have sustainability reports, audits and so

on. Um but that's also its limitation because what that's meant is that companies can engage in this mostly as a voluntary activity and they can set the goals and the targets and decide how ambitious or unambitious to be. And when you look at the science of what's happening in the world today, you look at the planetary

boundaries, you look at uh you know the the societal challenges we face, whether that's around poverty or inequality or or forced migration, you know, the the response by business in this voluntary way simply hasn't kept up with those uh challenges, many of which are still getting worse uh and and rather rapidly. So that's the disconnect

and that's why uh I believe there's a much stronger role for for government to play because the voluntary approach hasn't been enough. Uh and there's also uh a need to transition beyond sustainability which let's face it is just about survival. To sustain is to continue to something that is more ambitious where we actually say

well we've done quite a lot of damage uh already and we need to regenerate. We need to restore uh we need to actually be net positive, not just do a little less damage, which is what most of the metrics, if you look at reporting, uh show us. People are just measuring, you know, how much carbon they cut or how

much waste they cut or maybe a slight improvement in wages. It's not really into the net positive territory yet. So, so uh a point that that you're making a lot of people on this show are uh in startup are founding startups or investing in startups and are in that world of uh innovation and activity and

and it's very uh inspiring and positive. That's part of the reason that I love to do it. Um, and a question that comes up, uh, so, so we're not, you know, we're not talking about these these large scale corporations and how to enforce sustainability within them, but a question that does come up is how do you

as a, uh, on on the on the founder side and and even uh, investor, how do you approach these larger um, corporations and say, "Hey, we have a technology that's technically, you know, it's better for the environment and like it's more sustainable or or you know, whatever words you want to use, it's

it's it's it's better as it relates to our relationship uh with nature and things. But at the end of the day, it's going to save you money, it's going to save you time, and as as good core economics. And a lot of times when those even though the technology is good and the core economics aren't there yet,

there is a role that regulation plays in forcing the adoption of this new technology. And so I in certain contexts, yes, that's great. and you know creating a situation where a company needs to at least think about uh adopting a new technology but it's not it's not long term you know when when uh a company can't grow a

startup can't grow just on the basis that hey it works respective to this specific regulation so there needs to be some some other end goal some other uh financial economic story that makes sense so if we're talking about and um if I understand correctly your work has been a uh with these enterprises, the

the consultant, the strategy. Um what in your opinion then if we're moving past sustainability um you know regulation does play a role but how how do we actually enforce this environment this uh you know this this perspective this way of thinking of of decision-m um that isn't just uh a result of regulation but something deeper or

>> yeah it's a it's a good question and and I mentioned you know a lot of my work now was on the innovation and technology side because I also got disillusioned with how far these big corporations were going that they weren't ambitious enough and um and actually the problems that we have need creative solutions and we need

those solutions to go to scale and happily that is happening. Uh so if if you are one of those startups uh the first thing is to understand what is driving those large corporations because you're probably in their supply chains. You're probably coming to them with a solution. Um if you're not, you know, planning to uh become a unicorn

yourself and and sort of grow rapidly into your own large company. But um so it's to understand the pressures that they're under and some of those are regulatory but some are just uh you know the stakeholder pressures they feel whether that's from customers or from communities um or from employees even to to be more

responsible to be more sustainable to be ethical. So if you come to them with a solution that [clears throat] makes that easier for them uh then you know you you can make that business case and there are different ways to make that argument. It can be about reducing the risk for them. It can be about a revenue

growth opportunity. It can be about social license to operate for them. It can be about something that their customers are actually looking for. uh it can be about improving their access to finance because they can show then that they're uh sustainable.

So there are lots of arguments you can make to fit into you know their needs. But essentially you know the economics will depend on what the technology is and where that sector is in the transition. Um, so if you look at something like the energy technologies, we're actually past the tipping point.

We are scaling those rapidly. The economics are hugely favorable for solar, wind, and batteries. We're getting there just about at the tipping point on electric vehicles as well. So if you're in that space, then you're already chasing a huge and growing market. And it's more about competitiveness. Do you want to be one

of the winners or one of the losers? And that's different to let's say in the food industry where we also need to transition. That's a third of greenhouse gases and uh huge negative impacts on on nature. And we have great technological solutions whether that's different approaches like regenerative agriculture or precision fermentation or cell uh

cultured uh proteins. But those are much earlier in the same way that something like if you look at um materials and construction green hydrogen which allows us to make green steel and green um uh uh green ammonia uh which helps also with the agriculture. Uh these are much earlier technologies and so the costs aren't yet

uh in favor of of those that are producing those technologies. And that's where you need to look for the the leverage, the incentives. You need governments to help. Uh you need to find those companies that are strategic enough that they can see that opportunity.

And it's all about it's all about where you are on the cost curves for those technologies. And you can track those declining costs and that will tell you whether this is a what we call an exponential technology that will take off. Um and that's what I've tried to do with the with the book technologies of

hope. I've looked at 20 of those technologies to say look there are different stages but all of these could be absolutely transformational and you know the economics uh look good for them in the if not the short term then the medium and long term. So what so what is the work that you've been

doing um you know relative to trying to move past the idea of sustainability and uh into this new way of operating that we think businesses should be doing. >> Well again it depends who who I'm working with. Uh I I I'm these days a pademic a practical academic. So, you know, I'm I'm at the interface between

uh business or the market and and academia. So, some of it is about just um redefining the concept and making sure people get what it means to be regenerative, the idea of the regenerative economy, the circular economy, and then looking for the evidence of that. looking for the case studies that show that this is not only possible but

also could be lucrative. And so it's a lot about persuading companies um whether they be startups or large companies um that uh this is this is the kind of vision that they should be pursuing now and they need to also transition uh beyond sustainability. So a lot of it's about that.

It's you know the persuasion is is partly about getting the data. So a lot of what I've done with the technologies of hope is really track how those technologies are changing in terms of the take up of the market in terms of the falling cost curves. I've looked at who the players are, how quickly they've grown. Um, and

so, you know, it is about making people feel that a different and a better world is is possible. And, uh, tackling the crisis of hope that we feel because a lot of people feel like everything we've done hasn't really worked. uh and not only that we face serious geopolitical headwinds right now and we can't afford to give up

hope because in fact you know a lot of the solutions are there and and they're scaling in ways that a lot of people are not aware of. So do you in in in that theme we spoke about uh the um uh the space for batteries, the space for EVs like like energy tech. There's a lot of

these things that are uh that are finally coming around and becoming uh real uh markets and not so reliant on on regulation anymore. Do you have any favorite technologies that you wrote about? I mean there were several that you had mentioned uh if you wanted to go deeper into any one of them that are

have particular reasons to be hopeful relative to others. Well, there's favorites and there's favorites. I mean, in terms of what's transforming the most, it's solar energy. I mean, it's just going like a rocket right now. You get a country like Pakistan that imports from China in one year enough to supply 50% of the

electricity needs for the country. um you see in many developing countries they're just um you know rapidly scaling uh on on solar because the economics are so favorable now it is the cheapest form of electricity um and so even in markets like the US where there are political headwinds uh and rhetoric against renewables

even there the uh you know renewables are going really fast and even in the the sort of heartlands of fossil fuels like Texas. Renewables are going really fast. So I think solar is the one that is um my favorite in terms of what it is really transforming on the ground very very rapidly. And of course the oil

wars, the uh war in Ukraine and the war in Iran are only speeding that up. In the short term, the oil companies are having a little boom because the oil price goes up. But in fact, sort of strategically um for for countries, most countries are looking for ways now to transition off of fossil fuels more quickly and they

have those solutions there. So that's a favorite in terms of actual impact today. Um, I think uh in terms of uh my favorite in terms of potential, I think it probably is something like precision fermentation, which is something that's not so familiar to people, but it's a way of making food ingredients using microbes. Um, and it's

actually a technology not not that new. Of course, we've been fermenting things for years. Beer has been fermented. yeast in in in bread has been around for a long time. So, but actually it's been mainly used in medical ways. For example, insulin has been fermented for for years now, but it's got to the stage

where it's um it's cost competitive to make it for food ingredients. And the a lot of the food we eat is is ingredients. It's not all sort of apples and pears straight off the tree. And the the reduction in impact in terms of land and water and carbon is you know [snorts] dramatic. It's sort of more

than 95% reduction in that footprint. So it's also one where it can be scaled. It can be done locally. you know, every every um sort of factory and farm and and city and hotel could have their own um sort of uh little bioreactor there and and and create this. So, it's very very

scalable and there's not too much of an objection against it. as a um I' I've been a vegan now for about 10 years and a vegetarian for I don't know 35. You know, I I really want us I need us to make the transition off of um the high level of of um meat consumption that we

have because the uh the environmental and climate impacts are catastrophic. But people need an alternative and so that's something where this can help. cell cell cultured uh meat has huge potential again but much much more difficult because there are cultural um barriers there. People >> um don't yet I'm not yet convinced that

it's a good alternative and and there's the meat lobby. So that's it's it's one I'm interested in, but I wouldn't say it's the one that I'm um sort of placing all my bets on. Yeah, >> I do look at at AI and robotics as well.

So, we may want to talk about that since that's the sort of uh gorilla in the room today because I think that also has huge potential. >> Yeah, absolutely. How are you seeing that uh working into this into this conversation?

>> Well, you know, we have to acknowledge that there are huge risks uh of of AI and robotics and and those are various kinds of risks. Uh, of course it's uh displacement of people uh jobs uh it's also it may just get out of hand and there are cyber security issues and and

environmentally [clears throat] of course there's a big water and energy footprint from data centers. Um but less people have looked at the upside and the potential for AI to um find us the efficiencies we need whether that's on climate, carbon, water or or anything else are actually are actually huge. and initial work

that's been done by Google for example shows that we can really get those efficiency gains very quickly when robotics get to the stage where they really are deployable at scale um you know I think they will enable us to do things in nature restoration that we couldn't do because of the economics because of the cost of labor

um there's a whole area uh which I call earth information systems. We're getting much better at understanding uh our ecological systems at a planetary scale and and there's so much data we're collecting now with satellites and AI will help us to really optimize that so we know exactly what's happening. We basically are ending up with a a digital

twin of the earth and we can therefore you know diagnose the problems much more quickly and find the solutions much more effectively. on the energy uh and both al also the water footprint which is the one that most sustainability people are focused on and and have a very negative opinion of um I I just think we're at a very

very early stage we're with AI where we were with a Model T Ford and and automobiles you know we're so early and so already when you see uh China's Deep Seek coming out after uh chat GBT came out, it was I don't know 10 times more efficient. So I I think the energy story

we're going to get much better at at managing. We have to of course focus on it and and do everything we can. Um but then again, it comes together with that boom in in clean energy. So it it becomes less of an issue if we're able to make sure that energy is clean. And

on water as well, we we have ways to build lowwater uh data centers. We have that technology. So it's a case of feeling the pressure and then making that shift to those better technologies that are out there. Um so all the impacts I think need to be managed but we also need to remember that this is a

an incredible tool for scaling and speeding the solutions that we need. Um already it's been used to identify proteins for uh you know alternative u proteins and many other things. >> Yeah. Well, um I you know whe whether whether or not we take these companies at face value and all the the the demand

that they're projecting, you know, whether that's going to shake out. The matter, the the the truth of it is that there's a lot of this physical infrastructure being built out and a lot of these data centers are going ahead and you know all of this uh energy demand being planned out for and and and prepared for and uh

in some ways it's almost a Trojan horse for uh cleaner energy for cleaner technologies, more efficient technologies because there's so much uh money going into the sector saying oh if you can make a data center work reliably we don't care where the energy comes from. And then some company comes in and says, "Hey, we have an innovative

technology that's going to make it whatever percentage more efficient." They say, "Great, here's some money." You know, in a in a in a way that uh hasn't really been there before. But on the flip side, uh there there is a situation happening where a a lot of these technologies because they're not as immediately

reliable are being uh deferred for uh fossil fuels as well. So it's it's this weird thing where like both things are true at the same time where AI and the physical infrastructure and all the money going into it is simultaneously helping grow the industry but then also grow you know in uh infrastructure of

fossil fuels. So yeah what do you think about that? >> Well AI and and everything we're doing with data now uh is an amplifier. That's what it is. So whatever we point it at it will enhance and it'll speed up uh and and it'll make more efficient. So indeed you know the fossil fuel industry

is becoming more efficient as a result of AI as well. Um but also to remember you know with data centers being the big concern right now they need vast amounts of energy. Uh not by the way as much as people think. I mean it's probably around uh you know 1 to maybe 3% at the moment might go up uh

to a few more% by 2030 of total electricity demand. So there are other sectors where it's much higher in their consumption of electricity. So we have to keep it in perspective but they are very energy hungry. Now what's the quickest way when you need energy quickly because let's face it these things are popping up like

mushrooms. Well, the quickest way to deploy new energy is renewables. You know, you can build a solar farm or a wind farm much more quickly than you can, you know, a new fossil fuel plant or a new nuclear plant. So, you know, I think it does work uh on balance in the favor of of clean energy. But um you

know it is a tool and it's going to be used by by everyone to make themselves more more efficient and more successful and we just got to keep pushing it in the right direction. >> Cool. Well, two more questions for you.

The first one is uh I don't know if she would label herself a pademic, but she's definitely an academic. She's um this this woman from uh Notre Dame that uh interviewed a couple maybe two months ago or so. But her take is that she specifically studies that the fossil fuel transition and her take is that

there is not a transition happening. It's just there is a an increase in capacity as far as renewables go, as far as uh energy generation goes. in her in her definition, an actual transition would occur if there were commitments to transitioning away from fossil fuels, which she is not seeing. So, I was like,

that's crazy. I've never heard that, [laughter] but uh but I thought it was very interesting. So, do you have any thoughts on that? >> Yeah, I would disagree. Uh, but I can see where she's coming from because it is true that at the moment what f what renewables are doing is supplying all of

the new energy, maybe 90% of the new energy. So, we're keeping our existing fossil fuel infrastructure, but by and large it's not growing. It might be shrinking a little bit. So, all the new buildout is renewables that hasn't yet displaced um the fossil fuel base, if you like. But I don't think that that

can continue simply because of the economics. And one of the things I study is how technology disruption happens. And you know it's an S curve going up for the for the innovation. It it seems not to have an impact for a long time and then it suddenly very rapidly goes into the steep part of the curve and you get

that tipping point. uh and then it it it rapidly becomes the dominant technology. What people often forget is that there's there's another curve which is the old technology going into decline and so that's an an inverse scurve. So it starts out at a high level and then it seems to not seems to be hanging on

there for a long time and then suddenly it goes off a cliff because again the there's a sort of a vicious cycle that's working against it. It's becoming more costly. there's a it's losing its social license to operate. It's no longer getting the government support. Um I mean at the moment there are twice uh

the the volumes of capital going into clean tech as as into fossil fuels. So they're not getting the investment anymore. Um and and of course it's increasingly will move against them. The oil wars, you know, it it's going to become unpopular. So they hang on and they hang on and then I think they will

go into rapid decline. They won't completely disappear because there are good good things from fossil fuels. I mean we make medicines from fossil fuels and uh certainly materials at the moment are still you know uh needed for for plastics although we have alternatives but but [snorts] as an energy source um at least for for most mainstream energy

shipping and and and flying is a little bit trickier um and it'll probably hang in for that but that's quite a small percentage but for the rest I I think it's just not going to be able to compete and and at some point those plants those fossil fuel plants and and operations and explorations

just won't be economically viable and once you start making losses after losses um very quickly you know business can shut down and and investment gets diverted elsewhere so yeah I think uh the next five years uh we will see that decline happening which we don't quite yet. We see it in coal, by the

way. I mean, coal's definitely in decline, >> but uh for oil and gas, I think we'll see it in the next 5 years. >> Very cool. Well, maybe we should do an episode. Both of you guys can come at it from the different perspectives. Uh last question. With all this uh work that

you're doing and everything you have done, what inspires you? Well, um, I always say, you know, I'm a a possibilist. I didn't make that word up. I borrowed it from Hans Rosling, who was an amazing statistician. Um, but, uh, you know, it's believing that change is always possible uh, and then seeing evidence that it is

happening. I was fortunate enough to live through the transition in South Africa from aparate to democracy um back in the early '9s and so I can see I have witnessed how quickly transitions can happen you know when they seem to be so stuck for so long in the case of South Africa it was

40 years of of discrimination um and and then when you reach that tipping point suddenly within five or 10 years the whole transition is done. Um so I think it's understanding how disruptive change happens that gives me hope and inspires me and and then of course just being aware maybe more aware than others of

everybody working in this space. uh there are literally millions of people working you know to make a better outcome and because of my work I tune in even more into those uh sort of innovators and entrepreneurs and the startups and the new technologies and it's so exciting uh and you know that that that is always inspirational

um and realizing that uh this is this is a long fight this is generational fight so seeing that people are not ready to give up I think is inspirational. We've always had to fight for these things. Uh and uh you know we just need to keep on.

>> Yes. Well, if anyone else was inspired by this conversation by that uh to get in touch or follow along, I know you mentioned a book. What What are the best ways to find these things? Well, the book is Technologies of Hope and it should be available for pre-order shortly and um be out towards the end of

the year uh I believe. So, they can always look at that if they're desperate for something. Uh in the meantime, uh I have a bestseller called Thriving uh and and that's really looking at uh breakthrough innovation across uh a number of areas in society and the environment. So that's another alternative. Uh and that's available

ebook, audio book or uh or a paperback. >> Amazing. Well, Wayne, thank you so much for your time. This is a very awesome conversation. Thank you for the work that you're doing. I look forward to the next one.

>> Great. Thanks for having me.